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The Beatles (Proto-Metal)

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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue

Agreed. I guess someone decided that Wray and the Kinks were fundamental in the evolution of metal and everyone else like The Beatles were just following in their footsteps for a few tracks at least. 

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.

For the most part, the inclusions on this site are fairly right on. Of course a few stinkers fall through the cracks. Skinny Puppy was once here once but rightfully deleted so no guarantee that any of these including the Kinks will remain but personally i can see why the Kinks are here at least.

I'd still argue the Skinny Puppy one myself, but I'll let it lie...Ouch

And anyway, if we added The Beatles, that would be a fucking HUGE job! Number of entries on Discogs: 1 – 25 of 1,371!


I totally agree. There a gazillion METAL bands that need to be added here. Everyone and their grandma knows about the Beatles and there are a million other places where they can find them so i would say that there really is no good reason to add them on a METAL site.

Even the Jimi Hendrix page that is already here and deserves to be BTW, is woefully incomplete. Many bands here need work and tons of bands need added that are TOTALLY FUCKING METAL!!!!!

So just try to keep things in perspective. Having said that ---- I LOVE THE BEATLES!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 11:27pm
Be Prepared My Friends. Next post will be about The Rolling Stones...
Naaaaahhhh - Joooking :))))

Beer

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:02am
There's one thing metal about The Stones, Satanic song and album titles. :-) But yeah, musically, nothing remotely metal. I'd throw them under the umbrella hard rock at times, but even there it's 100% on the blues and pop end and nothing that approaches metal.

No Beach Boys or Dylan either. For some of you guys thinking some of us are taking this too far, even I have my limits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:15am
Not related to The Beatles but since Link Wray has been mentioned, my admin take on this is as follows:

The member who added him never went very far with his entry. There is literally one album and one single on this site out of many further releases. The member who added him hasn't been active here in a long time. It is highly unlikely (being kind here) that he intends to ever finish it. As he didn't at the time I can't see how he can possibly have been very invested in having Wray included here. 

I have checked the Proto-Metal Team thread in our Collab Zone for mentions of Link Wray and a report of his addition appears to be non-existent. The only actual mentions of Wray are in passing, one them being as follows:

Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

I don't think most intelligent metalers would accept John Lee Hooker, Toto or Link Wray.

Toto, as it happens, got the boot from MMA not that long ago. Maybe Wray should go too. I'm not seeing anything positive posted here about his inclusion. That's not a go-ahead for any collab to do so, yet, but an opening for it to be discussed. If anyone wants to go down that road, they can make a separate thread over it. 

More generally about the Proto-Metal sub regardless of the artist being discussed - Link Wray, The Beatles, The Kinks, one has to remember that it cannot possibly be operated under any normal guidelines that we can enforce for any other sub-genre such as when we say that a metal album must be at least half metal content to be under any metal tag or that a hard rock album must be dominantly hard rock to be in that sub. Proto additions are often selected on a very small and specific piece of material if our collabs on the team deemed it to be of enough significance to include the artist.

This is why The Kinks are here, at least. Can't speak for Link Wray because as I've said, there doesn't appear to have ever been any actual discussion over whether to include him, so he's basically here on one person's opinion. That person was a Proto team member at the time and an MMA admin, so was not outside of his rights to make the addition on his authority alone, but this is why we have forums to discuss things and it does look to me that some here don't share his support of Link Wray on MMA. As an aside, it's refreshing to see some serious discussion going on here for The Beatles. That's definitely what is required for any possible addition to Proto, whether it gets accepted or not in the end. 

Also regarding Proto Metal, some guidelines for the sub have changed over the years. For example we never used to have Hard Rock, let alone sub-genres under Hard Rock (notably Heavy Psych for this) which led to a lot of acts that should now be in Hard Rock or Heavy Psych actually being in Proto. We have picked some of these up and moved them, but we're not there yet. So in spite of what may appear evidence for the opposite, Hard Rock/Heavy Psych should always be placed in those subs, not Proto. Unless they're only borderland hard rock based releases, in which case Proto can have them, providing they're from before the 1975 cut-off that we enforce. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:50am
Maybe it came from Wikipedia article about Heavy Metal

An excerpt. I could see the addition of Link Wray if we included other early influences that built their guitar style around heavy distorted riffs. That would include the artists cited:

See also: Blues rockacid rock, and garage rock

Heavy metal's quintessential guitar style, built around distortion-heavy riffs and power chords, traces its roots to early 1950s Memphis blues guitarists such as Joe Hill LouisWillie Johnson, and particularly Pat Hare,[109][110] who captured a "grittier, nastier, more ferocious electric guitar sound" on records such as James Cotton's "Cotton Crop Blues" (1954);[110]the late 1950s instrumentals of Link Wray, particularly "Rumble" (1958);[111] the early 1960s surf rock of Dick Dale, including "Let's Go Trippin'" (1961) and "Misirlou" (1962); and The Kingsmen's version of "Louie Louie" (1963) which made it a garage rock standard.[112]

The band Cream is shown playing on a TV show. From left to right are drummer Ginger Baker (sitting behind a drumkit with two bass drums) and two electric guitarists.
Cream performing on the Dutch television program Fanclub in 1968.

However, the genre's direct lineage begins in the mid-1960s. American blues music was a major influence on the early British rockers of the era. Bands like The Rolling Stones and The Yardbirds developed blues rock by recording covers of classic blues songs, often speeding up the tempos. As they experimented with the music, the UK blues-based bands—and the U.S. acts they influenced in turn—developed what would become the hallmarks of heavy metal, in particular, the loud, distorted guitar sound.[31] The Kinks played a major role in popularising this sound with their 1964 hit "You Really Got Me".[113]

In addition to The Kinks' Dave Davies, other guitarists such as The Who's Pete Townshend and The Yardbirds' Jeff Beck were experimenting with feedback.[114][115] Where the blues rock drumming style started out largely as simple shuffle beats on small kits, drummers began using a more muscular, complex, and amplified approach to match and be heard against the increasingly loud guitar.[116] Vocalists similarly modified their technique and increased their reliance on amplification, often becoming more stylized and dramatic. In terms of sheer volume, especially in live performance, The Who's "bigger-louder-wall-of-Marshalls" approach was seminal.[117]

The combination of blues rock with psychedelic rock and acid rock formed much of the original basis for heavy metal.[118]The variant or subgenre of psychedelic rock often known as "acid rock" was particularly influential on heavy metal; acid rock is often defined as a heavier, louder, or harder variant of psychedelic rock,[119] or the more extreme side of the psychedelic rock genre, frequently containing a loud, improvised, and heavily distorted guitar-centered sound. Acid rock has been described as psychedelic rock at its "rawest and most intense," emphasizing the heavier qualities associated with both the positive and negative extremes of the psychedelic experience rather than only the idyllic side of psychedelia.[120]American acid rock garage bands such as the 13th Floor Elevators epitomized the frenetic, heavier, darker and more psychotic sound of acid rock, a sound characterized by droning guitar riffs, amplified feedback, and guitar distortion, while the 13th Floor Elevators' sound in particular featured yelping vocals and "occasionally demented" lyrics.[121] Frank Hoffman notes that: "Psychedelia was sometimes referred to as 'acid rock'. The latter label was applied to a pounding, hard rockvariant that evolved out of the mid-1960s garage-punk movement. ... When rock began turning back to softer, roots-oriented sounds in late 1968, acid-rock bands mutated into heavy metal acts."[122]

One of the most influential bands in forging the merger of psychedelic rock and acid rock with the blues rock genre was the British power trio Cream, who derived a massive, heavy sound from unison riffing between guitarist Eric Clapton and bassist Jack Bruce, as well as Ginger Baker's double bass drumming.[123] Their first two LPs, Fresh Cream (1966) and Disraeli Gears (1967), are regarded as essential prototypes for the future style of heavy metal. The Jimi Hendrix Experience's debut album, Are You Experienced (1967), was also highly influential. Hendrix's virtuosic technique would be emulated by many metal guitarists and the album's most successful single, "Purple Haze", is identified by some as the first heavy metal hit.[31] Vanilla Fudge, whose first album also came out in 1967, has been called "one of the few American links between psychedelia and what soon became heavy metal",[124] and the band has been cited as an early American heavy metal group.[125] On their self-titled debut album, Vanilla Fudge created "loud, heavy, slowed-down arrangements" of contemporary hit songs, blowing these songs up to "epic proportions" and "bathing them in a trippy, distorted haze."[124]

During the late 1960s, many psychedelic singers, such as Arthur Brown, began to create outlandish, theatrical and often macabre performances; which in itself became incredibly influential to many metal acts.[126][127][128] The American psychedelic rock band Coven, who opened for early heavy metal influencers such as Vanilla Fudge and the Yardbirds, portrayed themselves as practitioners of witchcraft or black magic, using dark—Satanic or occult—imagery in their lyrics, album art, and live performances. Live shows consisted of elaborate, theatrical "Satanic rites." Coven's 1969 debut album, Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls, featured imagery of skulls, black massesinverted crosses, and Satan worship, and both the album artwork and the band's live performances marked the first appearances in rock music of the sign of the horns, which would later become an important gesture in heavy metal culture.[129][130] At the same time in England, the band Black Widow were also among the first psychedelic rock bands to use occult and Satanic imagery and lyrics, though both Black Widow and Coven's lyrical and thematic influences on heavy metal were quickly overshadowed by the darker and heavier sounds of Black Sabbath.[129][130]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:53am
Personally i think The Kinks are cool because they were a MAJOR influence while all these other artists were basically prerequisites for metal, NOT proto-versions of the metal genre as a whole, so if my vote counts in this debate at all, i'd say bye bye Mr. Wray.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nightfly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 4:25pm
Whilst the Beatles are the most influential band ever including no doubt having an influence to some extent on some metal bands I think any claim on them fitting proto metal is slim at best. A few songs with loud guitars they may have but when they did get noisier it came across more as a throw back to their own rock 'n' roll influences in the main than any forward development towards metal. 

As a side note thrash metal band Coroner did a very good cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy).

I didn't even know Link Wray was here! I'd be quite happy to see him go. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 5:52pm
Just found very interesting link about how The Beatles could have an influence on heavy metal music
Maybe it will be helpful for colabs to make a final decision



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 6:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Purple Haze Purple Haze wrote:

Just found very interesting link about how The Beatles could have an influence on heavy metal music
Maybe it will be helpful for colabs to make a final decision





What a great video, thank you!

One I would like to add not in the video. "And Your Bird Can Sing" from REVOLVER (1966). Leading off the track is a duel guitar solo before Wishbone Ash, Thin Lizzy or Iron Maiden were ever around. Check it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:19pm
We can't add them because Paul died in a car crash. Satan made it so.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:27pm
No Beatles, no Cannibal Corpse.



Edited by metaldams - 02 Apr 2019 at 7:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by metaldams metaldams wrote:

No Beatles, no Cannibal Corpse.


Hahha. That's a good point  Buddy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 10:05am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.


I will say, stuff like this is a big part of why I prefer MMA to Encyclopedia Metallum. Unlike Metallum, which has a much more narrow point of view and constantly fights over what's "true metal" or not, MMA is a lot more welcome to fringe artists that help round out the database in a meaningful way. Those fringe bands may not be 100% metal, but - whether by contribution to the genre or by having certain influences FROM the genre - they can still be recognized in a metal context and judged within the margins of the style and culture. Being honest, I've always been irritated at Metallum's unwillingness to include bands like Between the Buried and Me and Avenged Sevenfold (the quality of those bands notwithstanding) just because of elitists who think the bands are "ruining" their precious genre. Whether or not you enjoy those bands, it's pretty indisputable that they can be objectively considered metal bands (even extreme metal in the former's case)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.


I will say, stuff like this is a big part of why I prefer MMA to Encyclopedia Metallum. Unlike Metallum, which has a much more narrow point of view and constantly fights over what's "true metal" or not, MMA is a lot more welcome to fringe artists that help round out the database in a meaningful way. Those fringe bands may not be 100% metal, but - whether by contribution to the genre or by having certain influences FROM the genre - they can still be recognized in a metal context and judged within the margins of the style and culture. Being honest, I've always been irritated at Metallum's unwillingness to include bands like Between the Buried and Me and Avenged Sevenfold (the quality of those bands notwithstanding) just because of elitists who think the bands are "ruining" their precious genre. Whether or not you enjoy those bands, it's pretty indisputable that they can be objectively considered metal bands (even extreme metal in the former's case)


Agree completely with this post.

I don't know how old you guys are and where you're from. I'm 40 and I'm American. I was about 9 or 10, late 80's and I remember Guns N' Roses, Def Leppard and a bunch of hair bands were considered metal and Metallica was this slightly underground heavier thing. A friend had some magazine where the most 100 important individuals in metal history were listed. I remember King Diamond was 100 and that was the first time I saw him. Number 1 was Robert Plant and number 2 Steven Tyler. Most people don't even consider them metal these days, but in the late 80's, some article called them number 1 and 2. I wish I knew the magazine. The point is there's a ton of revisionist history.

The first band to be called heavy metal in print was in Rolling Stone magazine, Nov. 1970. The band? Humble Pie. In the mid and late 70's, Circus Magazine had cover articles talking about heavy metal including KISS, Aerosmith, Queen (!) and other bands most would not consider metal these days. These days, the only things considered metal from the 70's are Sabbath, Priest, Dio era Rainbow, maybe Scorpions, and Motorhead. Again, revisionist history. Yes, music changes, drastically, but all genres that last a half century have a lineage and go through changes. Metal, jazz, country, general rock, whatever. I've occasionally heard Sabbath should be taken out because they have blues influence and it should now Priest should be considered the first metal band.

As far as The Beatles, maybe they should be considered metal the way Robert Johnson is rock 'n' roll. Not pure at all, but an undeniable influence who in certain moments, predicted the genre.

Edited by metaldams - 03 Apr 2019 at 11:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 11:52am
The way I personally see it, especially in relation to how Proto-Metal works on this site, is that Black Sabbath is the first band that can be accepted as having enough elements of what we now think of as traditional metal - even though as has just been pointed out, they did indeed still have blues elements, which heavy metal is seen as being a step away from. Black Sabbath's debut was released in 1970, but our cut-off for Proto-Metal is being recorded in 1975. That's basically our way of saying that even though we accept that metal was born five years earlier, it wasn't fully formed until the mid-70's when Judas Priest and the like entered the scene. And we don't actually count Priest's debut as Heavy Metal here, but Hard Rock. 

There has always been heavy debate on which of those early acts existing around the time of the first Black Sabbath albums should also be placed in Heavy Metal on MMA. We accept Budgie and Sir Lord Baltimore, which are another two biggies, and perhaps more unusually, we also accepted Satori by Flower Travellin' Band. I'm sure there are others. The trouble is, every one has a different opinion on this, so we do tend to stick to our guns when a decision is made one way or another (Heavy Metal, Hard Rock or Proto-Metal). Incidentally when I first came to MMA Black Sabbath wasn't considered to be actual heavy metal until the Heaven and Hell album. They were in Proto, which went completely against all the foundations of metal I'd known up until that point. Luckily, they eventually got moved. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CPicard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 12:01pm
Maybe the best method to consider the inclusion of the Beatles (and also the Kinks, Link Wray, etc...) would be to observe the discussions of paleontologists about the hominid lineage: was the Australopithecus important in the evolution from hominoids to hominids? Yes. But was Lucy the first of the Homo species? No.
Let me think about it a little bit further (and with the correct English words for prehistory)...
RRROOOAAARRR!!! - Vovod, II-1, 1986 B.C.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

The way I personally see it, especially in relation to how Proto-Metal works on this site, is that Black Sabbath is the first band that can be accepted as having enough elements of what we now think of as traditional metal - even though as has just been pointed out, they did indeed still have blues elements, which heavy metal is seen as being a step away from. Black Sabbath's debut was released in 1970, but our cut-off for Proto-Metal is being recorded in 1975. That's basically our way of saying that even though we accept that metal was born five years earlier, it wasn't fully formed until the mid-70's when Judas Priest and the like entered the scene. And we don't actually count Priest's debut as Heavy Metal here, but Hard Rock. 

There has always been heavy debate on which of those early acts existing around the time of the first Black Sabbath albums should also be placed in Heavy Metal on MMA. We accept Budgie and Sir Lord Baltimore, which are another two biggies, and perhaps more unusually, we also accepted Satori by Flower Travellin' Band. I'm sure there are others. The trouble is, every one has a different opinion on this, so we do tend to stick to our guns when a decision is made one way or another (Heavy Metal, Hard Rock or Proto-Metal). Incidentally when I first came to MMA Black Sabbath wasn't considered to be actual heavy metal until the Heaven and Hell album. They were in Proto, which went completely against all the foundations of metal I'd known up until that point. Luckily, they eventually got moved. 



I do like the idea of 1975 being the cut off date for proto-metal based on the Priest theory and you're right there's always going to be debate on those early albums. My opinion, Deep Purple In Rock is way more metal than the first Sabbath album, but again, that's just my opinion. Yet one gets labeled hard rock the other metal, respectively.

The reality is things in the 70's weren't so pigeonholed (as opposed to today where things are too pigeonholed) and heaviness usually varied from release to release. I don't know if you guys read Martin Popoff's decade by decade metal guides, but his 70's book is great in the fact he doesn't only rate albums on merit, but also heaviness. For example, he gives JOHNNY THE FOX from Thin Lizzy a 6/10, meaning it's barely above average in heaviness but a very awesome album, something I agree with. Those heaviness ratings really are all over the place even within certain band catalogs and I think that sums up the 70's in a nutshell.

Yes, it is cool to have debate and there'll never be a definitive answer on most older bands. One thing I will say is culturally, the term heavy metal has been used to describe music way before a lot of more modern fans are more comfortable to admit.

Also, all Sabbath pre Dio is proto-metal? Damn, glad that was fixed! But you know, five or ten years from now, the way things are headed, I can see that being more accepted. Led Zeppelin was metal when I was a kid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 3:17pm
The whole Sabbath vs. Priest debate based on blues roots reminds me a lot of the debate regarding the origins of death metal from thrash roots. I think the answer varies from person to person. I know many people consider Possessed's Seven Churches to be the first death metal record, but are those people comfortable with that answer when considering how much thrash is present on the album? I think it comes down to a difference of which artists connected the dots vs. which artists crystalized those innovative elements into a new concoction. If we're going with "connect the dots" albums, then Seven Churches is the first for me. If we're talking about "shedding the old elements" then Altars of Madness would probably be my ground zero.

That goes back to the Sabbath/Priest debate. If you don't mind a little blues and hard rock still being involved in metal, Sabbath could be ground zero. But if you think the answer lies in who shed those old roots, then Sabbath would be proto-metal and Priest would be the first full-fledged metal band. Me personally, I go with Sabbath as the first one because I believe they took out enough of those old sounds to stand out as a new creation back in the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vim Fuego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

The whole Sabbath vs. Priest debate based on blues roots reminds me a lot of the debate regarding the origins of death metal from thrash roots. I think the answer varies from person to person. I know many people consider Possessed's Seven Churches to be the first death metal record, but are those people comfortable with that answer when considering how much thrash is present on the album? I think it comes down to a difference of which artists connected the dots vs. which artists crystalized those innovative elements into a new concoction. If we're going with "connect the dots" albums, then Seven Churches is the first for me. If we're talking about "shedding the old elements" then Altars of Madness would probably be my ground zero.


Just to illustrate a point, here's where I start:

I Am Deth!!! Fukk You!!!
인생 은 나쁜 음악 이 너무 짧다!
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