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The Beatles (Proto-Metal)

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Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Suggest new bands/artists to MMA
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Metal Music Archives
URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16113
Printed Date: 22 Aug 2019 at 7:42am
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Topic: The Beatles (Proto-Metal)
Posted By: Purple Haze
Subject: The Beatles (Proto-Metal)
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 2:43pm
Hello my Metal Maniacs Friends
I think Beatles are absolutely "must" to be added on MMA.
"Revolver", "White Album", "Abbey Road" albums were really important and influential for the genre.

https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/the-beatles" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/the-beatles
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-beatles/revolver-5/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-beatles/revolver-5/
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-beatles/the-beatles-white-album-4/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-beatles/the-beatles-white-album-4/
https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-beatles/abbey-road/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/the-beatles/abbey-road/

Beer



Replies:
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 9:09pm
I think they were influential for EVERY genre actually :)

Not sure if they've ever been considered here. They do have heavy songs like Helter Skelter but i don't think any of their albums have enough heavy tracks to qualify IMHO


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Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 8:40am
Yes Puppy it's really difficult if talking abound the bands from 60's if we can qualify them to proto-metal or non metal genre. But i see that The Kinks are here so why not The Beatles... Just my opinion.

Long Live Rock'n'Roll !!!
Beer


Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 10:15am
The funny thing with The Kinks everything past their first three albums is labeled as "non-metal" and that's accurate. They also have a huge catalog. In my opinion, the Kinks main contributions to birthing metal are the two early singles we all know plus the less known but awesome b-side of the era "I Need You." The rest of their catalog I love for the most part, but has nothing to do with metal.

So yes, if The Kinks are in, by proto-metal standards, The Beatles should be in for "Helter Skelter" and "I Want You (She's So Heavy)." The latter has a closing riff that could be on Black Sabbath VOL. 4 as far as I'm concerned.

Interestingly enough, in his biography, Paul McCartney himself feels the drum beat in "Ticket to Ride" helped invent heavy metal. While I don't agree with that, just some food for thought.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 11:53am
Just... no.

I've seen this revisionist push for The Beatles to be considered "proto-metal" and "proto-punk" all over the place. It's grasping, pushing, stretching, and overreaching far too far. The Beatles were plenty of things, but proto-metal? No.


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I Am Deth!!! Fukk You!!!
인생 은 나쁜 음악 이 너무 짧다!


Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 3:06pm
Vim if it's "no" from You for The Beatles, can You explain to me why there's a 'yes" for the Kinks on the website. I totally agree with Metaldams. The Kinks main contributions to birthing metal are the two early singles - nothing else... and they are exist on MMA.

Long Live Rock'n'Roll
Beer


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 3:34pm
No, I can't explain it. It's not one of the genres I deal with here, and I wasn't privy to the decision to add them.

If you want to know anything about grindcore however, I can help you out with that.Wink


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I Am Deth!!! Fukk You!!!
인생 은 나쁜 음악 이 너무 짧다!


Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 4:52pm
If I were doing it, I would just label the entire early catalog non-metal and from The White Album on go proto-metal. That way, we're giving nod to the influence but not counting them as a major player in metal. It is a stretch, admittedly, but we're talking sixties here and something has to be the least heaviest thing on the site. May as well be the most influential band ever who had a few metal moments and influenced a ton of metal bands.


Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:41pm
metaldams - again - i'm definitely agree with You.
so dearest admins and colabs please accept it :)) last Beatles albums deserves to be here

P.S. I am very happy that my first post on MMA is such a hot discussion :)) 

Long Live Rock'n'Roll
Beer


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:44pm
The Beatles are great in my opinion, but I wouldn't consider them eligible for a site like this. While they do have proto-metal songs like Helter Skelter and I Want You (the latter of which even helped invent doom metal!), the problem is that they don't have a full album that explores this. I believe the guideline is that an album has to be at least 50% of a specific metal genre to count for its inclusion. I myself have been guilty of adding some fringe bands in the past - especially Manic Street Preachers - but at least that band had a very clear hard rock and metal influence over the course of their entire first three albums. And I felt that was worthy enough to include them, which was eventually agreed upon.

Don't get me wrong here: The Beatles definitely have a place in metal history. As with many other genres, heavy metal wouldn't have been the same without their existence and impact. But to be honest, hard rock and proto-metal just weren't a dominant part of their overall sound. Other bands at the time, such as Budgie or Blue Cheer, fleshed these elements out a lot more. If we were trying to put The Beatles on here for a song like Helter Skelter, then we'd have to put their entire White Album under that proto-metal label. And that just seems dishonest to me.

I don't think I have the ultimate authority to turn this one down, since I'm not a proto-metal-specific collaborator, but if my input counts at all here, I'm gonna have to say no. Just my two cents anyway. Wink

PS: I don't think the Kinks should be on here either. Smile


Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:55pm
Necrotica i think that in this situation it should be a very clear and strict regulations.
What about for example then with Dick Dale? I understand that he was named as a King Of Surf Guitar etc. but... please... common... After that then we should agreed for Beach Boys then... :)))

Long Live Rock'n'Roll
Beer


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Purple Haze Purple Haze wrote:

Vim if it's "no" from You for The Beatles, can You explain to me why there's a 'yes" for the Kinks on the website. I totally agree with Metaldams. The Kinks main contributions to birthing metal are the two early singles - nothing else... and they are exist on MMA.

Long Live Rock'n'Roll
Beer

I think i can explain. Personally i wouldn't be sad if the Kinks weren't here at all BUT they are probably here because they were the first band to crank up the distortion and had a major influence on metal bands like Van Halen for example in much the same way Venom sort of launched extreme metal by accident. While the Kinks are hardly metal or punk they still get cited by both for having a certain DIY attitude along with a crafty disregard for the conventional norms that kept many other garage bands from developing. 

 True they went the pop route fairly quickly but You Really Got Me and Paranoia were very much the launching pad for heavier distortion in music therefore they get a special pass i would guess for this sole contribution. The Beatles on the other hand had a greater hand in developing prog and only a scant few songs that could pass as proto metal like Helter Skelter. I just don't think they qualify otherwise we'd have to add every garage band from the 60s like the Troggs or the Sonics who would be more qualified.

Proto is a special case by case basis that doesn't make complete sense but reserved for bands that had more influence than others. Same with hard rock. Personally i don't want the Beatles here even though they are one of my favorite bands of all time.


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Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:42pm
I see the argument you guys are making and I get the point. It is true The Beatles didn't have close to a half album worth of metal. I would argue "Helter Skelter" is ahead of those early Kinks singles, but The Kinks did it in 1964 and by 1968, yes the World had Blue Cheer, fair point.

The proto metal thing is hard to figure out because there were so many artists that had brief moments of metal but were never metal. The heaviest song of the 60's to me is from The Pretty Things, "Old Man Going." From 1968 and the riff reminds me of "Leaving Nadir" from Witchfynde (see link below).   But if we're going for more consistency, I get the point with The Beatles - then again....their level of influence is so insane you can argue a special exception.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mg5t7T5_rR8

Shit, while on proto metal, I'd argue if the only album David Bowie ever made was THE MAN WHO SOLD THE WORLD, he's be on every obscure early metal list. It's the rest of the career that stops that.


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:53pm
I completely agree with The Man Who Sold the World being proto-metal. I reviewed that album last year on Sputnik, and I was really surprised by the fantastic mix of heavy metal and glam rock it had. Almost like an early precursor to Queen's 70s work


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:55pm
Link Wray is on here too. Oh fuck it. Just add everyone!!!!

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Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Link Wray is on here too. Oh fuck it. Just add everyone!!!!


I didn't realize he was until you mentioned it. He's gotta be the oldest artist.

Hey, as long as the term "proto" is put in to differentiate between Morbid Angel and their place is properly explained, I'm cool with it on older artists. Metal was festering well before Iommi had a work accident, it just took him to consolidate it. Births of most cultural movements are complicated, that's what makes it fun.


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 7:19pm
lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue

Agreed. I guess someone decided that Wray and the Kinks were fundamental in the evolution of metal and everyone else like The Beatles were just following in their footsteps for a few tracks at least. 

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.

For the most part, the inclusions on this site are fairly right on. Of course a few stinkers fall through the cracks. Skinny Puppy was once here once but rightfully deleted so no guarantee that any of these including the Kinks will remain but personally i can see why the Kinks are here at least.


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Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue

Agreed. I guess someone decided that Wray and the Kinks were fundamental in the evolution of metal and everyone else like The Beatles were just following in their footsteps for a few tracks at least. 

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.

For the most part, the inclusions on this site are fairly right on. Of course a few stinkers fall through the cracks. Skinny Puppy was once here once but rightfully deleted so no guarantee that any of these including the Kinks will remain but personally i can see why the Kinks are here at least.

I'd still argue the Skinny Puppy one myself, but I'll let it lie...Ouch

And anyway, if we added The Beatles, that would be a fucking HUGE job! Number of entries on Discogs: 1 – 25 of 1,371!


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I Am Deth!!! Fukk You!!!
인생 은 나쁜 음악 이 너무 짧다!


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Purple Haze Purple Haze wrote:

metaldams - again - i'm definitely agree with You.
so dearest admins and colabs please accept it :)) last Beatles albums deserves to be here

P.S. I am very happy that my first post on MMA is such a hot discussion :)) 

Long Live Rock'n'Roll
Beer

It's good to get a bit of discussion going here.Clap


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I Am Deth!!! Fukk You!!!
인생 은 나쁜 음악 이 너무 짧다!


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue

Agreed. I guess someone decided that Wray and the Kinks were fundamental in the evolution of metal and everyone else like The Beatles were just following in their footsteps for a few tracks at least. 

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.

For the most part, the inclusions on this site are fairly right on. Of course a few stinkers fall through the cracks. Skinny Puppy was once here once but rightfully deleted so no guarantee that any of these including the Kinks will remain but personally i can see why the Kinks are here at least.

I'd still argue the Skinny Puppy one myself, but I'll let it lie...Ouch

And anyway, if we added The Beatles, that would be a fucking HUGE job! Number of entries on Discogs: 1 – 25 of 1,371!


I totally agree. There a gazillion METAL bands that need to be added here. Everyone and their grandma knows about the Beatles and there are a million other places where they can find them so i would say that there really is no good reason to add them on a METAL site.

Even the Jimi Hendrix page that is already here and deserves to be BTW, is woefully incomplete. Many bands here need work and tons of bands need added that are TOTALLY FUCKING METAL!!!!!

So just try to keep things in perspective. Having said that ---- I LOVE THE BEATLES!!!!


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Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 11:27pm
Be Prepared My Friends. Next post will be about The Rolling Stones...
Naaaaahhhh - Joooking :))))

Beer



Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:02am
There's one thing metal about The Stones, Satanic song and album titles. :-) But yeah, musically, nothing remotely metal. I'd throw them under the umbrella hard rock at times, but even there it's 100% on the blues and pop end and nothing that approaches metal.

No Beach Boys or Dylan either. For some of you guys thinking some of us are taking this too far, even I have my limits.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:15am
Not related to The Beatles but since Link Wray has been mentioned, my admin take on this is as follows:

The member who added him never went very far with his entry. There is literally one album and one single on this site out of many further releases. The member who added him hasn't been active here in a long time. It is highly unlikely (being kind here) that he intends to ever finish it. As he didn't at the time I can't see how he can possibly have been very invested in having Wray included here. 

I have checked the Proto-Metal Team thread in our Collab Zone for mentions of Link Wray and a report of his addition appears to be non-existent. The only actual mentions of Wray are in passing, one them being as follows:

Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

I don't think most intelligent metalers would accept John Lee Hooker, Toto or Link Wray.

Toto, as it happens, got the boot from MMA not that long ago. Maybe Wray should go too. I'm not seeing anything positive posted here about his inclusion. That's not a go-ahead for any collab to do so, yet, but an opening for it to be discussed. If anyone wants to go down that road, they can make a separate thread over it. 

More generally about the Proto-Metal sub regardless of the artist being discussed - Link Wray, The Beatles, The Kinks, one has to remember that it cannot possibly be operated under any normal guidelines that we can enforce for any other sub-genre such as when we say that a metal album must be at least half metal content to be under any metal tag or that a hard rock album must be dominantly hard rock to be in that sub. Proto additions are often selected on a very small and specific piece of material if our collabs on the team deemed it to be of enough significance to include the artist.

This is why The Kinks are here, at least. Can't speak for Link Wray because as I've said, there doesn't appear to have ever been any actual discussion over whether to include him, so he's basically here on one person's opinion. That person was a Proto team member at the time and an MMA admin, so was not outside of his rights to make the addition on his authority alone, but this is why we have forums to discuss things and it does look to me that some here don't share his support of Link Wray on MMA. As an aside, it's refreshing to see some serious discussion going on here for The Beatles. That's definitely what is required for any possible addition to Proto, whether it gets accepted or not in the end. 

Also regarding Proto Metal, some guidelines for the sub have changed over the years. For example we never used to have Hard Rock, let alone sub-genres under Hard Rock (notably Heavy Psych for this) which led to a lot of acts that should now be in Hard Rock or Heavy Psych actually being in Proto. We have picked some of these up and moved them, but we're not there yet. So in spite of what may appear evidence for the opposite, Hard Rock/Heavy Psych should always be placed in those subs, not Proto. Unless they're only borderland hard rock based releases, in which case Proto can have them, providing they're from before the 1975 cut-off that we enforce. 


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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:50am
Maybe it came from Wikipedia article about http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music" rel="nofollow - Heavy Metal

An excerpt. I could see the addition of Link Wray if we included other early influences that built their guitar style around heavy distorted riffs. That would include the artists cited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heavy_metal_music&action=edit&section=13" rel="nofollow -

See also:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_rock" rel="nofollow - Blues rock ,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rock" rel="nofollow - acid rock , and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage_rock" rel="nofollow - garage rock

Heavy metal's quintessential guitar style, built around distortion-heavy riffs and power chords, traces its roots to early 1950s  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_blues" rel="nofollow - Memphis blues   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitarist" rel="nofollow - guitarists  such as  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hill_Louis" rel="nofollow - Joe Hill Louis ,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Johnson_%28guitarist%29" rel="nofollow - Willie Johnson , and particularly  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Hare" rel="nofollow - Pat Hare , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-rolling_memphis-109" rel="nofollow - [109] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-palmer-110" rel="nofollow - [110]  who captured a "grittier, nastier, more ferocious electric guitar sound" on records such as  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cotton" rel="nofollow - James Cotton 's " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:James_Cotton_-_Cotton_Crop_Blues.ogg" rel="nofollow - Cotton Crop Blues " (1954); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-palmer-110" rel="nofollow - [110] the late 1950s instrumentals of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_Wray" rel="nofollow - Link Wray , particularly " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumble_%28instrumental%29" rel="nofollow - Rumble " (1958); https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-111" rel="nofollow - [111]  the early 1960s  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf_music" rel="nofollow - surf rock  of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Dale" rel="nofollow - Dick Dale , including " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lets_Go_Trippin" rel="nofollow - Let's Go Trippin' " (1961) and " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misirlou" rel="nofollow - Misirlou " (1962); and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingsmen" rel="nofollow - The Kingsmen 's version of " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louie_Louie" rel="nofollow - Louie Louie " (1963) which made it a  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage_rock" rel="nofollow - garage rock  standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-112" rel="nofollow - [112]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cream_on_Fanclub_1968.png" rel="nofollow">The band Cream is shown playing on a TV show. From left to right are drummer Ginger Baker (sitting behind a drumkit with two bass drums) and two electric guitarists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cream_on_Fanclub_1968.png" rel="nofollow -
Cream performing on the Dutch television program Fanclub in 1968.

However, the genre's direct lineage begins in the mid-1960s. American blues music was a major influence on the early  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_rock" rel="nofollow - British rockers  of the era. Bands like  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rolling_Stones" rel="nofollow - The Rolling Stones  and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Yardbirds" rel="nofollow - The Yardbirds  developed  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_rock" rel="nofollow - Blues rock  by recording covers of classic blues songs, often speeding up the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo" rel="nofollow - tempos . As they experimented with the music, the UK blues-based bands—and the U.S. acts they influenced in turn—developed what would become the hallmarks of heavy metal, in particular, the loud, distorted guitar sound. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-vdqxbw-31" rel="nofollow - [31]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kinks" rel="nofollow - The Kinks  played a major role in popularising this sound with their 1964 hit " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Really_Got_Me" rel="nofollow - You Really Got Me ". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-113" rel="nofollow - [113]

In addition to The Kinks'  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Davies" rel="nofollow - Dave Davies , other guitarists such as  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Who" rel="nofollow - The Who 's  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Townshend" rel="nofollow - Pete Townshend  and The Yardbirds'  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Beck" rel="nofollow - Jeff Beck  were experimenting with feedback. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-114" rel="nofollow - [114] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-115" rel="nofollow - [115]  Where the blues rock drumming style started out largely as simple shuffle beats on small kits, drummers began using a more muscular, complex, and amplified approach to match and be heard against the increasingly loud guitar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-eyaqji-116" rel="nofollow - [116]  Vocalists similarly modified their technique and increased their reliance on amplification, often becoming more stylized and dramatic. In terms of sheer volume, especially in live performance, The Who's "bigger-louder-wall-of- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Amplification#Marshall_Stack" rel="nofollow - Marshalls " approach was seminal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-117" rel="nofollow - [117]

The combination of blues rock with  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_rock" rel="nofollow - psychedelic rock  and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rock" rel="nofollow - acid rock  formed much of the original basis for heavy metal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-118" rel="nofollow - [118] The variant or subgenre of psychedelic rock often known as " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rock" rel="nofollow - acid rock " was particularly influential on heavy metal; acid rock is often defined as a heavier, louder, or harder variant of psychedelic rock, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-AMgenre-119" rel="nofollow - [119]  or the more extreme side of the psychedelic rock genre, frequently containing a loud, improvised, and heavily distorted guitar-centered sound. Acid rock has been described as psychedelic rock at its "rawest and most intense," emphasizing the heavier qualities associated with both the positive and negative extremes of the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_experience" rel="nofollow - psychedelic experience  rather than only the idyllic side of psychedelia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-bisbort-120" rel="nofollow - [120] American acid rock  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage_bands" rel="nofollow - garage bands  such as the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Floor_Elevators" rel="nofollow - 13th Floor Elevators  epitomized the frenetic, heavier, darker and more psychotic sound of acid rock, a sound characterized by  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - droning  guitar riffs, amplified feedback, and guitar distortion, while the 13th Floor Elevators' sound in particular featured yelping vocals and "occasionally demented" lyrics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-unterberger-121" rel="nofollow - [121]  Frank Hoffman notes that: "Psychedelia was sometimes referred to as 'acid rock'. The latter label was applied to a pounding,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_rock" rel="nofollow - hard rock variant that evolved out of the mid-1960s  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garage-punk" rel="nofollow - garage-punk  movement. ... When rock began turning back to softer, roots-oriented sounds in late 1968, acid-rock bands mutated into heavy metal acts." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-122" rel="nofollow - [122]

One of the most influential bands in forging the merger of psychedelic rock and acid rock with the blues rock genre was the British power trio  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cream_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Cream , who derived a massive, heavy sound from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unison" rel="nofollow - unison  riffing between guitarist  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Clapton" rel="nofollow - Eric Clapton  and bassist  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Bruce" rel="nofollow - Jack Bruce , as well as  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginger_Baker" rel="nofollow - Ginger Baker 's double bass drumming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-123" rel="nofollow - [123]  Their first two LPs,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_Cream" rel="nofollow - Fresh Cream  (1966) and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disraeli_Gears" rel="nofollow - Disraeli Gears  (1967), are regarded as essential prototypes for the future style of heavy metal.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jimi_Hendrix_Experience" rel="nofollow - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 's debut album,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_You_Experienced_%28album%29" rel="nofollow - Are You Experienced  (1967), was also highly influential.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Hendrix" rel="nofollow - Hendrix 's virtuosic technique would be emulated by many metal guitarists and the album's most successful single, " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Haze" rel="nofollow - Purple Haze ", is identified by some as the first heavy metal hit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-vdqxbw-31" rel="nofollow - [31]   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_Fudge" rel="nofollow - Vanilla Fudge , whose  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_Fudge_%28album%29" rel="nofollow - first album  also came out in 1967, has been called "one of the few American links between psychedelia and what soon became heavy metal", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-vanillafudge-124" rel="nofollow - [124]  and the band has been cited as an early American heavy metal group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-browne-125" rel="nofollow - [125]  On their self-titled debut album, Vanilla Fudge created "loud, heavy, slowed-down arrangements" of contemporary hit songs, blowing these songs up to "epic proportions" and "bathing them in a trippy, distorted haze." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-vanillafudge-124" rel="nofollow - [124]

During the late 1960s, many psychedelic singers, such as  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Brown_%28musician%29" rel="nofollow - Arthur Brown , began to create outlandish, theatrical and often  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macabre" rel="nofollow - macabre  performances; which in itself became incredibly influential to many metal acts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-126" rel="nofollow - [126] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-127" rel="nofollow - [127] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-128" rel="nofollow - [128]  The American psychedelic rock band  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coven_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Coven , who opened for early heavy metal influencers such as Vanilla Fudge and the Yardbirds, portrayed themselves as practitioners of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft" rel="nofollow - witchcraft  or  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic" rel="nofollow - black magic , using dark— https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism" rel="nofollow - Satanic  or  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult" rel="nofollow - occult —imagery in their lyrics, album art, and live performances. Live shows consisted of elaborate, theatrical " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mass" rel="nofollow - Satanic rites ." Coven's 1969 debut album,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft_Destroys_Minds_%26_Reaps_Souls" rel="nofollow - Witchcraft Destroys Minds & Reaps Souls , featured imagery of skulls,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_mass" rel="nofollow - black masses ,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_cross" rel="nofollow - inverted crosses , and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan" rel="nofollow - Satan  worship, and both the album artwork and the band's live performances marked the first appearances in rock music of the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_horns" rel="nofollow - sign of the horns , which would later become an important gesture in heavy metal culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-people-129" rel="nofollow - [129] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-pattersonblackmetal-130" rel="nofollow - [130]  At the same time in England, the band  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Widow_%28band%29" rel="nofollow - Black Widow  were also among the first psychedelic rock bands to use occult and Satanic imagery and lyrics, though both Black Widow and Coven's lyrical and thematic influences on heavy metal were quickly overshadowed by the darker and heavier sounds of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sabbath" rel="nofollow - Black Sabbath . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-people-129" rel="nofollow - [129] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music#cite_note-pattersonblackmetal-130" rel="nofollow - [130]



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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 11:53am
Personally i think The Kinks are cool because they were a MAJOR influence while all these other artists were basically prerequisites for metal, NOT proto-versions of the metal genre as a whole, so if my vote counts in this debate at all, i'd say bye bye Mr. Wray.

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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 4:25pm
Whilst the Beatles are the most influential band ever including no doubt having an influence to some extent on some metal bands I think any claim on them fitting proto metal is slim at best. A few songs with loud guitars they may have but when they did get noisier it came across more as a throw back to their own rock 'n' roll influences in the main than any forward development towards metal. 

As a side note thrash metal band Coroner did a very good cover of I Want You (She's So Heavy).

I didn't even know Link Wray was here! I'd be quite happy to see him go. 


Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 5:52pm
Just found very interesting link about how The Beatles could have an influence on heavy metal music
Maybe it will be helpful for colabs to make a final decision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3qmnhTaz3k" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3qmnhTaz3k




Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 6:06pm
And just for fun there are some good heavy covers of Beatles songs:

SATAN'S HOST - Norwegian Wood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COf99AJDH_o&list=PLHgesqJBHkrQxmQ_e79eMYsw4J3r6PNzP&index=4" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COf99AJDH_o&list=PLHgesqJBHkrQxmQ_e79eMYsw4J3r6PNzP&index=4

GODSMACK - Come Together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHqHbF1j4w&list=PLNLBJeHPQoRg7aDYcYslPK0tHmSEdjioC&index=2" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HHqHbF1j4w&list=PLNLBJeHPQoRg7aDYcYslPK0tHmSEdjioC&index=2

REALM - Eleanor Rigby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XNoU3tHqU&list=PLHgesqJBHkrQxmQ_e79eMYsw4J3r6PNzP" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XNoU3tHqU&list=PLHgesqJBHkrQxmQ_e79eMYsw4J3r6PNzP

RAILWAY - Let It Be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSNa3feC0jk&list=PLHgesqJBHkrQxmQ_e79eMYsw4J3r6PNzP&index=3" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSNa3feC0jk&list=PLHgesqJBHkrQxmQ_e79eMYsw4J3r6PNzP&index=3




Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Purple Haze Purple Haze wrote:

Just found very interesting link about how The Beatles could have an influence on heavy metal music
Maybe it will be helpful for colabs to make a final decision

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3qmnhTaz3k" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3qmnhTaz3k




What a great video, thank you!

One I would like to add not in the video. "And Your Bird Can Sing" from REVOLVER (1966). Leading off the track is a duel guitar solo before Wishbone Ash, Thin Lizzy or Iron Maiden were ever around. Check it out.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:19pm
We can't add them because Paul died in a car crash. Satan made it so.




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Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:27pm
No Beatles, no Cannibal Corpse.



Posted By: Purple Haze
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2019 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by metaldams metaldams wrote:

No Beatles, no Cannibal Corpse.


Hahha. That's a good point  Buddy.


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 10:05am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.


I will say, stuff like this is a big part of why I prefer MMA to Encyclopedia Metallum. Unlike Metallum, which has a much more narrow point of view and constantly fights over what's "true metal" or not, MMA is a lot more welcome to fringe artists that help round out the database in a meaningful way. Those fringe bands may not be 100% metal, but - whether by contribution to the genre or by having certain influences FROM the genre - they can still be recognized in a metal context and judged within the margins of the style and culture. Being honest, I've always been irritated at Metallum's unwillingness to include bands like Between the Buried and Me and Avenged Sevenfold (the quality of those bands notwithstanding) just because of elitists who think the bands are "ruining" their precious genre. Whether or not you enjoy those bands, it's pretty indisputable that they can be objectively considered metal bands (even extreme metal in the former's case)


Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.


I will say, stuff like this is a big part of why I prefer MMA to Encyclopedia Metallum. Unlike Metallum, which has a much more narrow point of view and constantly fights over what's "true metal" or not, MMA is a lot more welcome to fringe artists that help round out the database in a meaningful way. Those fringe bands may not be 100% metal, but - whether by contribution to the genre or by having certain influences FROM the genre - they can still be recognized in a metal context and judged within the margins of the style and culture. Being honest, I've always been irritated at Metallum's unwillingness to include bands like Between the Buried and Me and Avenged Sevenfold (the quality of those bands notwithstanding) just because of elitists who think the bands are "ruining" their precious genre. Whether or not you enjoy those bands, it's pretty indisputable that they can be objectively considered metal bands (even extreme metal in the former's case)


Agree completely with this post.

I don't know how old you guys are and where you're from. I'm 40 and I'm American. I was about 9 or 10, late 80's and I remember Guns N' Roses, Def Leppard and a bunch of hair bands were considered metal and Metallica was this slightly underground heavier thing. A friend had some magazine where the most 100 important individuals in metal history were listed. I remember King Diamond was 100 and that was the first time I saw him. Number 1 was Robert Plant and number 2 Steven Tyler. Most people don't even consider them metal these days, but in the late 80's, some article called them number 1 and 2. I wish I knew the magazine. The point is there's a ton of revisionist history.

The first band to be called heavy metal in print was in Rolling Stone magazine, Nov. 1970. The band? Humble Pie. In the mid and late 70's, Circus Magazine had cover articles talking about heavy metal including KISS, Aerosmith, Queen (!) and other bands most would not consider metal these days. These days, the only things considered metal from the 70's are Sabbath, Priest, Dio era Rainbow, maybe Scorpions, and Motorhead. Again, revisionist history. Yes, music changes, drastically, but all genres that last a half century have a lineage and go through changes. Metal, jazz, country, general rock, whatever. I've occasionally heard Sabbath should be taken out because they have blues influence and it should now Priest should be considered the first metal band.

As far as The Beatles, maybe they should be considered metal the way Robert Johnson is rock 'n' roll. Not pure at all, but an undeniable influence who in certain moments, predicted the genre.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 11:52am
The way I personally see it, especially in relation to how Proto-Metal works on this site, is that Black Sabbath is the first band that can be accepted as having enough elements of what we now think of as traditional metal - even though as has just been pointed out, they did indeed still have blues elements, which heavy metal is seen as being a step away from. Black Sabbath's debut was released in 1970, but our cut-off for Proto-Metal is being recorded in 1975. That's basically our way of saying that even though we accept that metal was born five years earlier, it wasn't fully formed until the mid-70's when Judas Priest and the like entered the scene. And we don't actually count Priest's debut as Heavy Metal here, but Hard Rock. 

There has always been heavy debate on which of those early acts existing around the time of the first Black Sabbath albums should also be placed in Heavy Metal on MMA. We accept Budgie and Sir Lord Baltimore, which are another two biggies, and perhaps more unusually, we also accepted Satori by Flower Travellin' Band. I'm sure there are others. The trouble is, every one has a different opinion on this, so we do tend to stick to our guns when a decision is made one way or another (Heavy Metal, Hard Rock or Proto-Metal). Incidentally when I first came to MMA Black Sabbath wasn't considered to be actual heavy metal until the Heaven and Hell album. They were in Proto, which went completely against all the foundations of metal I'd known up until that point. Luckily, they eventually got moved. 


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http://www.facebook.com/adg211288Reviews/
http://www.last.fm/user/adg211288


Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 12:01pm
Maybe the best method to consider the inclusion of the Beatles (and also the Kinks, Link Wray, etc...) would be to observe the discussions of paleontologists about the hominid lineage: was the Australopithecus important in the evolution from hominoids to hominids? Yes. But was Lucy the first of the Homo species? No.
Let me think about it a little bit further (and with the correct English words for prehistory)...


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RRROOOAAARRR!!! - Vovod, II-1, 1986 B.C.


Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

The way I personally see it, especially in relation to how Proto-Metal works on this site, is that Black Sabbath is the first band that can be accepted as having enough elements of what we now think of as traditional metal - even though as has just been pointed out, they did indeed still have blues elements, which heavy metal is seen as being a step away from. Black Sabbath's debut was released in 1970, but our cut-off for Proto-Metal is being recorded in 1975. That's basically our way of saying that even though we accept that metal was born five years earlier, it wasn't fully formed until the mid-70's when Judas Priest and the like entered the scene. And we don't actually count Priest's debut as Heavy Metal here, but Hard Rock. 

There has always been heavy debate on which of those early acts existing around the time of the first Black Sabbath albums should also be placed in Heavy Metal on MMA. We accept Budgie and Sir Lord Baltimore, which are another two biggies, and perhaps more unusually, we also accepted Satori by Flower Travellin' Band. I'm sure there are others. The trouble is, every one has a different opinion on this, so we do tend to stick to our guns when a decision is made one way or another (Heavy Metal, Hard Rock or Proto-Metal). Incidentally when I first came to MMA Black Sabbath wasn't considered to be actual heavy metal until the Heaven and Hell album. They were in Proto, which went completely against all the foundations of metal I'd known up until that point. Luckily, they eventually got moved. 



I do like the idea of 1975 being the cut off date for proto-metal based on the Priest theory and you're right there's always going to be debate on those early albums. My opinion, Deep Purple In Rock is way more metal than the first Sabbath album, but again, that's just my opinion. Yet one gets labeled hard rock the other metal, respectively.

The reality is things in the 70's weren't so pigeonholed (as opposed to today where things are too pigeonholed) and heaviness usually varied from release to release. I don't know if you guys read Martin Popoff's decade by decade metal guides, but his 70's book is great in the fact he doesn't only rate albums on merit, but also heaviness. For example, he gives JOHNNY THE FOX from Thin Lizzy a 6/10, meaning it's barely above average in heaviness but a very awesome album, something I agree with. Those heaviness ratings really are all over the place even within certain band catalogs and I think that sums up the 70's in a nutshell.

Yes, it is cool to have debate and there'll never be a definitive answer on most older bands. One thing I will say is culturally, the term heavy metal has been used to describe music way before a lot of more modern fans are more comfortable to admit.

Also, all Sabbath pre Dio is proto-metal? Damn, glad that was fixed! But you know, five or ten years from now, the way things are headed, I can see that being more accepted. Led Zeppelin was metal when I was a kid.


Posted By: Necrotica
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 3:17pm
The whole Sabbath vs. Priest debate based on blues roots reminds me a lot of the debate regarding the origins of death metal from thrash roots. I think the answer varies from person to person. I know many people consider Possessed's Seven Churches to be the first death metal record, but are those people comfortable with that answer when considering how much thrash is present on the album? I think it comes down to a difference of which artists connected the dots vs. which artists crystalized those innovative elements into a new concoction. If we're going with "connect the dots" albums, then Seven Churches is the first for me. If we're talking about "shedding the old elements" then Altars of Madness would probably be my ground zero.

That goes back to the Sabbath/Priest debate. If you don't mind a little blues and hard rock still being involved in metal, Sabbath could be ground zero. But if you think the answer lies in who shed those old roots, then Sabbath would be proto-metal and Priest would be the first full-fledged metal band. Me personally, I go with Sabbath as the first one because I believe they took out enough of those old sounds to stand out as a new creation back in the day.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

The whole Sabbath vs. Priest debate based on blues roots reminds me a lot of the debate regarding the origins of death metal from thrash roots. I think the answer varies from person to person. I know many people consider Possessed's Seven Churches to be the first death metal record, but are those people comfortable with that answer when considering how much thrash is present on the album? I think it comes down to a difference of which artists connected the dots vs. which artists crystalized those innovative elements into a new concoction. If we're going with "connect the dots" albums, then Seven Churches is the first for me. If we're talking about "shedding the old elements" then Altars of Madness would probably be my ground zero.


Just to illustrate a point, here's where I start:



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I Am Deth!!! Fukk You!!!
인생 은 나쁜 음악 이 너무 짧다!


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 6:00pm
^ me too. Possessed is the vital transition album though. As far as MMA is concerned, i agree that it blows away EM becaause of these fringe inclusions however The Beatles don't seem like a good fit. There are many other bands that had a heavy rocker or two in the 60s. Glad nobody suggested Elvis :D

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Posted By: metaldams
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2019 at 9:05pm
I'm not much a death metal guy but even I like those early Morbid Angel albums. With some exceptions, thrash is about the heaviest I get and even there I'm a big Possessed fan. SEVEN CHURHES has elements of both death and thrash, but the album and EP after are pure thrash. Death, Morbid Angel and others after remained death metal for several releases after their first album.

Kind of like metal in general with all the proto metal stuff, elements slowly start to appear and then consolidate together.


Posted By: voila_la_scorie
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2019 at 8:41am
Umm... back to the Beatles... Yes, my first thought was, "Well, the Kinks are on here, so..."

But if I may argue just a small point, which I think is totally debatable. The Kinks' "You Really Got Me" and "All Day and All of the Night" were really groundbreaking for setting the mould for the future of the genre. While someone like, let's say Link Wray, provided inspiration for the next generation of guitarists like Pete Townshend and Jimmy Page, The Kinks' distorted rockers set more of a template for metal songs. Of course, if the Kinks did anything else like that later on, I haven't heard it.

Now the Beatles were doing just about everything and anything. "Helter Skelter" was covered by quite a few bands and it sure is hard hitting. But I've read a pretty good argument stating that "Helter Skelter" is not a heavy metal song, but rather just a loud and pounding rock song. Basically, the Beatles were just trying to write a song as loud and pounding as they could. Rumour says that they were trying to outdo the Who.

Based on just a couple of songs, it seems odd to include any band here unless their songs were truly influential. I think the Beatles showing up on a metal site would stand out as questionable, whereas the Kinks make sense for their two big influential tracks. The Beatles are just known for so much more than a couple of heavy hitters. But then again, there are many bands from the sixties who had a couple of really raunchy, loud numbers in their catalogue. Perhaps the line is somewhere between "You Really Got Me" and "Helter Skelter"? 


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A story told that can't be real somehow must reflect the truth we feel.



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