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Topic: Innovation
Posted By: Balthamel
Subject: Innovation
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2011 at 1:30pm
I am gonna talk/wrtie about 5 bands i think were vital for some of the evolution of the subgeneres sludge, stoner, and doom metal.

I pounder on many thoughts all the time about bands, sounds, innovation and development in certain direktions we know. if this is in the wrong section, then i think it should be moved

I often think it is funny to think of that two bands can have so much to say for some generes development (not that other bands have helped). Some bands are pretty much talked about from every soul in said generes, and most people in sludge sites bands like Neurosis and Melvins without even one seceond of time to think. they are massivly influentual, a third band i like to drag into the heat when influence on sludge (which is the most dominant genere of metal where most exieting stuff happens right now IMO) is Soundgarden, (who also were influenced by Melvins to some degree, but they are from same time/place of origin so the influence might go both ways, all these three bands are known for the slow, sludgy, Sabbath/Zeppelin styled guitar (which is dominant in sludge), Jane's Addiction ( a fairly new band to me) but i will also say they are an influentual band to these types of generes, from what i hear and read they were early with incorporating proggy elements into the alternative style of metal or sludgy metal since alternative is a very broad term. Alice in Chains is the 5th band i would like to drag out into my text as a influentual force for these styles their doomy, often dark imagery and sound were important to the sludge development.  (their are probably other bands but i base my groundless hypothese/hypocracy Wink, on these 5 bands).

Sludge and Stoner are often very similar i think, both have the slow heavy metal sound and futher on Doom metal which also is a related style to these but even slower. i don't claim to be an expert on sludge metal but im very interested in it as a phenomenom since it is a very experimental genere, and the bands in it often are very free spirited, eclectic and seems to have different yet interesting philosophys, and motivs for their music to make it as exieting and individual as possible.

that is why i chosed those 5 bands as example to where it started all the 5 bands are known for being very indipendent, and yet they are labeld they escape the labeld put on them which also is similar to many sludge/doom/stoner metal bands,   Isis is sludge but also many other things, Baroness is also sludge but also something differentm, Agaloch is sludge but also black and other things.

so the main theme here is bands that early on in the 80s (or mid 80s) early takes on the Sabbath/Zeppelin/Blue Cheer/psych guitar and sound, and slowed it down, or reenginted with new life, and gave it a modern sound but also used their indipendent phiosophy or mentality and did what they felt for with it and influenced a heck of bands, some bands in the 80s propelled it (Janes Addiction, Melvins, Neurosis, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains) some bands in the 90s developed on teh ideas (Kyuss, Clutch, Tool, At the Drive-In (bringing ina post-hardcore band) and 90s Pantera is also i would say important of some ideas in Sludge) but i tend to focus on the alternative side of the development and not the metal-side of the cake.


Posted By: genghiscon
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 5:20pm
Loved that you took the time with what you wrote. I see where you are coming from on the "alternative side" of the argument, even if I question a few of your choices like Tool or Janes Addiction.

 I think you have to add Trouble into the mix here. Those guys go as far back as the late seventies - early eighties and really helped start the stoner/doom movement. Its a shame that they didn't get more popular than they did. Mostly due to lack of promotion by their own labels, spotty touring, and ignorant press that called them "a poor mans Black Sabbath". But, you would do well to go back and listen to their first three or four albums and see how hugely influential they were.  I would also STRONGLY urge you to listen to St. Vitus and Candlemass. These three bands formed the backbone of the Doom Metal movement. I don't even really listen to much Doom any more, but I have the seminal works of these three bands in my collection.

Thanks for starting this topic and I hope you get some more guys far more qualified than I to further the conversation.

I got Rock N Roll to save me from the cold, and if thats all there is, that aint so bad. Rock N Roll! - Lemmy

Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 7:29pm
I wouldn't ever argue with Neurosis and Melvins, and I might even agree to some extent with how influential you say Soundgarden and AiC were to sludge/stoner metal.  I'm not sure I could agree with Jane's Addiction though.

another band I might mention are Swans, for their early material

Depending on how far back you want to go, the obvious thing to say is Black Sabbath.
There are also groups like Earth and Sleep that played pretty crucial roles relatively early on when it comes to stoner and sludge metal.  I won't comment on doom metal because my knowledge in that area is woefully pitiful.

One group I think often gets left out of such discussion is Boris (although more on the post-metal side of things).  When you take into account that Amplifier Worship only came out 2 years after Through Silver and Blood (widely regarded the first post-metal album), and Flood another 2 years after that, it shows that they beat out a lot a lot a lot of other bands with that particular style.

I don't really remember where I was going with this

Chris, one thing worth noting is that some Agalloch albums are under sludge/post on this site not because they are sludge, but because they are basically post-metal.  Agalloch is extremely hard to classify, though.  A band like Baroness (Intronaut, The Ocean, early Mastodon etc.) I'd call progressive sludge metal.  Isis is basically the quintessential post-metal band, but their early EPs and first studio album are more like sludge metal.

Posted By: Wilytank
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 4:10pm
If you're covering doom, I sure hope you'll include some funeral doom.


Posted By: Balthamel
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 10:10am
Listening to Swans now Triceratopsguy i will notify my reaction after i have heard some more songs.

also i have to check into more of the bands you mentioned, also sludge and post metal are different developed styles of similar birth place only different influences,

and maybe Jane's Addiction is not so much influentual to sludge metal but i think they are a band i find very faciniation and was an important alternative rock band of it's time and one of the original Loolapalooza bands also


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by Balthamel Balthamel wrote:

Listening to Swans now Triceratopsguy i will notify my reaction after i have heard some more songs.

it's worth noting that only Swans' first maybe 2 studio albums and 2 EPs are "metal"

Posted By: Murphy
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2011 at 4:56pm
Regarding sludge, as Tri.... mentioned above the Swans played a pivotal role in it's beginnings (and perhaps latter day Black Flag too). To look at Sludge's ground work through the 80's I think it is important to take into the consideration what was happening within the Noise Rock & Post-Hardcore scenes (even some industrial/industrial rock if your interested in the close links early sludge had to bands like Godflesh).

After reading this thread I cracked out Zeni Geva's Vast Impotentz (KK Null's band) from '86, which is a great extension of what the Swans brought to the table with albums, like Filth & Cop, but wtih decidedly more dirge, especially the 'epic' which stirs thoughts of drone doom, predating stuff like Earth & Sleep by a number of years (again, those two mentioned by Tri...).

Other mid eights works which I can think of at the moment are Head of David's album simple entitled 'LP'. There's a thoughtful review on Metal-Archives" rel="nofollow - which divulges upon some historical informs & a tube link" rel="nofollow - for aural references. Gore - Hart Gore (and their following albums) could be of interest. Hart Gore, I think, was re-issued on Southern Lord in '08 if that's a hint towards it's sound.

In the late 80's early 90's you've got things like Skullflower - From Destroyer (which while not metal I cannot help think it influenced the more atmospheric side of Sludge), Eyehategod's early albums (for some reason they seem almost ignored on this site despite being one of the most seminal bands of the genre), anyway this is a bit hodgepodge and vague, I'd have to sit down and give this a proper think...

Guai ai gelidi mostri �Everything that is doddering, squint-eyed, infamous, sullying, and grotesque is contained for me in this single word: God� Andr� Breton

Posted By: mmogoogle
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2013 at 9:02pm
Chris, one issue price noting is that some Agalloch albums ar beneath sludge/post on this website not as a result of they're sludge, however as a result of they're primarily post-metal.  Agalloch is very exhausting to classify, though.  A band like Lady (Intronaut, The Ocean, early proboscidian etc.) i might decision progressive sludge metal.  Isis is essentially the representative post-metal band, however their early EPs and initial studio album ar a lot of like sludge metal.

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