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A name for "progressive metal punk?"

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URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16612
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Topic: A name for "progressive metal punk?"
Posted By: LightningRider
Subject: A name for "progressive metal punk?"
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2021 at 9:02am
What would it be?

Would it be "progressive metalcore?"  Maybe not.  There's also crossover thrash, grindcore, andd epending on how you look at it, trancecore.  I've been trying to think of a term for I sometimes look for progressive punk+metal.  But "punk metal" sounds weird enough, "prog punk metal?"  Yikes.

You're probably wondering why this matters.  I'm throwing together a list of progressive punk + metal, but I'm wondering if there's a better term for it.

"Progcore" is a MAYBE.  But that could just be used for progressive hardcore punk, no metal needed.

EDIT: This is NOT for debating whether or not certain metal genres are punk.  That is a different discussion for a different thread, and those diverging into that topic will be reminded.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!



Replies:
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2021 at 11:50am
A lot of the post-hardcore acts have progressive tendendices like Cursed, Burst, Breach, Code Orange, and Converge. Some of them are often labelled metalcore, but I think of them as post-hardcore.


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https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2021 at 8:02pm
True, but progressive tendencies and straight up prog have a difference. This chart I'm making is supposed to illustrate it.

If you think of a decent name, please let me know.

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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 08 Oct 2021 at 10:15pm
You including sludge in there too? Progcore sounds too generic, although it rolls off the tongue easily enough. It may sound clumsy but progressive punk metal as you suggest, or prog hardcore metal would be more accurate.


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2021 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

You including sludge in there too? Progcore sounds too generic, although it rolls off the tongue easily enough. It may sound clumsy but progressive punk metal as you suggest, or prog hardcore metal would be more accurate.


I haven't heard a lot of sludge-based punk, but I am NOT opposed to it.

Metal mixed with punk would be hardcore by nature, so I do like the idea of "hardcore metal," but mixing prog with it would be funky.  Metallic progcore might work since it sounds legit, but since it's so new it also sounds out of whack.

That, and with how stuffy Metallum can be, how many bands would they exclude on the lightning-strikes-twice chance that it actually becomes fairly common...?


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2021 at 12:14pm
can you give some examples of bands that play "progressive metal punk" because i can't think of any that do that. 


Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2021 at 1:28pm
^ not now as I’m sat in a bar in Bucharest having consumed far too many beers, but there are hundreds of progressive sludge, metalcore and deathcore bands and a good number of progressive grind bands. Pretty much any mathcore bands are progressive by definition and worth a listen if you like your prog to be of the extreme variety. Not all progressive core bands are good, but not all progressive metal bands are.


Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2021 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

^ not now as I’m sat in a bar in Bucharest having consumed far too many beers, but there are hundreds of progressive sludge, metalcore and deathcore bands and a good number of progressive grind bands. Pretty much any mathcore bands are progressive by definition and worth a listen if you like your prog to be of the extreme variety. Not all progressive core bands are good, but not all progressive metal bands are.

not helping with my question in any way. I'll leave it at that... Ouch


Posted By: Archisorcerus
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2021 at 9:07am
Progressilver Punk. Tongue

Yep, silver is my favourite metal.

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Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2021 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

can you give some examples of bands that play "progressive metal punk" because i can't think of any that do that. 


Between the Buried and Me is the first thing that comes to mind.  There's also Fit for an Autopsy, early Protest the Hero, Slice the Cake, Born of Osiris, After the Burial and The Contortionist.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2021 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

can you give some examples of bands that play "progressive metal punk" because i can't think of any that do that. 


Between the Buried and Me is the first thing that comes to mind.  There's also Fit for an Autopsy, early Protest the Hero, Slice the Cake, Born of Osiris, After the Burial and The Contortionist.

there is nothing "punk" about any of the bands you mentioned, I do not get what you're trying to do with this thread. Confused


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 10:41am
Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

there is nothing "punk" about any of the bands you mentioned, I do not get what you're trying to do with this thread. Confused


Then don't post.  If you don't sense punk in them that's on you.  But google deathcore and metalcore.  Hell, most metalcore won't even be allowed on Metallum because these bands are considered "too punk."  This statement of yours is too grounded in opinion and has no bearing on the topic itself, which means if you're going to get snippy about it then all you're doing for me is wasting time.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

there is nothing "punk" about any of the bands you mentioned, I do not get what you're trying to do with this thread. Confused


Then don't post.  If you don't sense punk in them that's on you.  But google deathcore and metalcore.  Hell, most metalcore won't even be allowed on Metallum because these bands are considered "too punk."  This statement of yours is too grounded in opinion and has no bearing on the topic itself, which means if you're going to get snippy about it then all you're doing for me is wasting time.

excuse me for wasting your time, please carry on with your nonsense. 

There is no such thing as progressive metal punk. I think it's an oxymoron, if there ever was one. 
Deathcore and metalcore have nothing to do with punk. Early metalcore for example was a mix of metal (thrash, groove and hardcore). Deathcore mixed initially death metal and hardcore. 

Sludge was mentioned earlier, again nothing to do with punk. 

Yeah, I won't be wasting your time anymore... Ouch



Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 12:48pm
This is all subjective and it's always been subjective.  This list is not for you, and it would be the artists' decision if it was objective, not yours.  I will continue to believe it's not nonsense and you'll just have to be an adult and deal with it.  I don't care if you don't believe it exists (which, considering how many genres there are, is impossible foe me to believe), but your attitude is another story.  This list isn't  for you.  I barely know you, and I have friends who like the same music I do whether or not you "approve."  I will continue with the list.  Your childish insults and demanding "objective" behavior are all your whining is currently good for on this thread.

My thread, my list, my rules.  If you don't like it, leave.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

This is all subjective and it's always been subjective.  This list is not for you, and it would be the artists' decision if it was objective, not yours.  I will continue to believe it's not nonsense and you'll just have to be an adult and deal with it.  I don't care if you don't believe it exists (which, considering how many genres there are, is impossible foe me to believe), but your attitude is another story.  This list isn't  for you.  I barely know you, and I have friends who like the same music I do whether or not you "approve."  I will continue with the list.  Your childish insults and demanding "objective" behavior are all your whining is currently good for on this thread.

My thread, my list, my rules.  If you don't like it, leave.

Subjective?! I only explained what a couple of music genres mean, which should be common knowledge. 

You talk about objectivity and then come up with your own genre name. That makes a lot of sense. 

My attitude?! Didn't you just tell me I was wasting your time?! LOL

Childish insults? What childish insults?! LOL

Whining? How? Confused

I was just trying to make sense of this thread and seeing there isn't one, I'll leave you be... 


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

Subjective?! I only explained what a couple of music genres mean, which should be common knowledge. 

You talk about objectivity and then come up with your own genre name. That makes a lot of sense. 

My attitude?! Didn't you just tell me I was wasting your time?! LOL

Childish insults? What childish insults?! LOL

Whining? How? Confused

I was just trying to make sense of this thread and seeing there isn't one, I'll leave you be... 


A: Your behavior is practically demanding that I believe it doesn't exist.  There is clear anger in your posts, so don't deny it.

B: I made it clear that I didn't expect the genre term to kick off, obviously because I know I can't control people.  It's one list.  It's not the Ten Commandments.  There's no objectivity, it's just for fun.  There's plenty of sense in that which, if you calmed down, you'd be able to see.  In fact, it's so obvious that it indicates the possibility that you're simply not understanding the posts yourself, which is your own fault.  It's not proof, but it is cause for suspicion.

C-E: This goes back to your attitude.  You think I like having my opinions called "nonsense?"  That's the kind of thing one says when there annoyed.  It's MUSIC.  There are people all over the internet who agree and disagree and you don't see me calling it nonsense and you never will.  It's rude.  This thread is not for debating the existence of the genre, and once again I don't need you to agree (which goes back to how you're wrong when you say I'm including objectivity in point B).  I created this thread expecting a debate on the genre's existence to happen.  But you're one guy that I barely know.  You don't have to agree with me, I don't have to agree with you.

F: You didn't want sense.  You came here to argue.  If I'm wrong about that and you really do want a better description of metalcore, go to Wikipedia.

AND ONE MORE THING: I'm barely getting one new post a day.  I didn't start this thread for a big distraction.  You're a member of the community too, so you should think about this, and with everyone stuck at home because of the pandemic, sometimes the forums are our way of communication with the outside world.  You are fully capable of understanding all of this, and it's a shame that you don't realize that I want a question answered and that it's more important than whether or not the genre exists.  I was nice enough to answer your question anyway, and you just said "there's nothing punk about them" as if you could deicde that.  If you had said, "I don't see anything punk about them" and answered with an option for a title or two, that would be different.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

Subjective?! I only explained what a couple of music genres mean, which should be common knowledge. 

You talk about objectivity and then come up with your own genre name. That makes a lot of sense. 

My attitude?! Didn't you just tell me I was wasting your time?! LOL

Childish insults? What childish insults?! LOL

Whining? How? Confused

I was just trying to make sense of this thread and seeing there isn't one, I'll leave you be... 


A: Your behavior is practically demanding that I believe it doesn't exist.  There is clear anger in your posts, so don't deny it.

B: I made it clear that I didn't expect the genre term to kick off, obviously because I know I can't control people.  It's one list.  It's not the Ten Commandments.  There's no objectivity, it's just for fun.  There's plenty of sense in that which, if you calmed down, you'd be able to see.  In fact, it's so obvious that it indicates the possibility that you're simply not understanding the posts yourself, which is your own fault.  It's not proof, but it is cause for suspicion.

C-E: This goes back to your attitude.  You think I like having my opinions called "nonsense?"  That's the kind of thing one says when there annoyed.  It's MUSIC.  There are people all over the internet who agree and disagree and you don't see me calling it nonsense and you never will.  It's rude.  This thread is not for debating the existence of the genre, and once again I don't need you to agree (which goes back to how you're wrong when you say I'm including objectivity in point B).  I created this thread expecting a debate on the genre's existence to happen.  But you're one guy that I barely know.  You don't have to agree with me, I don't have to agree with you.

F: You didn't want sense.  You came here to argue.  If I'm wrong about that and you really do want a better description of metalcore, go to Wikipedia.

AND ONE MORE THING: I'm barely getting one new post a day.  I didn't start this thread for a big distraction.  You're a member of the community too, so you should think about this, and with everyone stuck at home because of the pandemic, sometimes the forums are our way of communication with the outside world.  You are fully capable of understanding all of this, and it's a shame that you don't realize that I want a question answered and that it's more important than whether or not the genre exists.  I was nice enough to answer your question anyway, and you just said "there's nothing punk about them" as if you could deicde that.  If you had said, "I don't see anything punk about them" and answered with an option for a title or two, that would be different.

" You don't have to agree with me, I don't have to agree with you." - The only thing you stated that I agree to. LOL

I don't need to go to wikipedia for genre definitions. For the genres mentioned here I do not need to, I have lsitened to metalcore, progressive metalcore, even deathcore (which I do not like) just to see what's it all about. Wikipedia is not even the good resource for genre definitions, but that's a different story. 

How can any kind of conversation can be had when we don't agree on what genres are, like I said - common knowledge. I never come up with genres names, it will only confuse people. So a term like "progressive metal-punk makes little sense, especially since it's an oxymoron. Two genres impossible to join together. I've heard plenty of progressive metal, extreme progressive metal (progressive death, progressive black, technical thrash), but I don't see how progressive metal could ever be mixed with punk. That is why I asked for examples and I got metalcore, progressive metalcore, math-metal/mathcore as answer. And you get upset I do not understand what is happening in this thread? 

I did not come to argue, but i guess things got out of hand. 
I'm only trying to express an opinion, I am not attacking you. 


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

What would it be?

Would it be "progressive metalcore?"  Maybe not.  There's also crossover thrash, grindcore, andd epending on how you look at it, trancecore.  I've been trying to think of a term for I sometimes look for progressive punk+metal.  But "punk metal" sounds weird enough, "prog punk metal?"  Yikes.

You're probably wondering why this matters.  I'm throwing together a list of progressive punk + metal, but I'm wondering if there's a better term for it.

"Progcore" is a MAYBE.  But that could just be used for progressive hardcore punk, no metal needed.

EDIT: This is NOT for debating whether or not certain metal genres are punk.  That is a different discussion for a different thread, and those diverging into that topic will be reminded.

This is the first band I thought of when you mentioned this:

https://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/shai-hulud/" rel="nofollow - Shai Hulud
SHAI HULUD picture

I remember when I first heard them, and being blown away by the variety of stuff they were playing. I found a bit hard to listen to, but it was impressive nonetheless.

https://www.metalmusicarchives.com/subgenre/mathcore" rel="nofollow - Mathcore is probably closest to what you're looking for here I'd think.

Dillinger Escape Plan
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/dillinger-escape-plan-the/" rel="nofollow - https://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/dillinger-escape-plan-the/

And a couple of others:
The Locust
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/the-locust/" rel="nofollow - https://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/the-locust/

See You Next Tuesday
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/see-you-next-tuesday/" rel="nofollow - https://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/see-you-next-tuesday/

This the sort of stuff you thinking about?


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

This the sort of stuff you thinking about?


Those are good examples, too.  Mathcore may or may not get in.  It really depends, like the difference between tech death metal and prog death metal.  It's a REALLY fine line.  Whatever helps you think of a good name is perfectly cool with me.

Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

I did not come to argue, but i guess things got out of hand. 
I'm only trying to express an opinion, I am not attacking you. 

If you have a problem with me saying you're wasting time, you can provide authenticity of itby giving me a good name.  For the last time: This is not a thread for discussing if the genre exists or not.  All I need are some concept names.  And you're still not leaving like you said you would, so if you're gonna stay, please stay on topic.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 12:31am
I guess that progressive metallic hardcore or prog hardcore metal are as close as we’ll get. In terms of inclusions I don’t think you can exclude mathcore, which is more than just technical for me. Sludge is hardcore influenced by doom (was sometimes called doomcore in the early days) so bands like Neurosis and early Mastodon would be in there (I can give you names of plenty of very punky sludge bands if that helps). Can’t think of too many prog crossover bands off the top of my head but there’s probably a pile of them.


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 9:44am
Neurosis and Mastodon are two of my favorites. I'd like to see your other recommendations.

Prog hardcore metal, huh? Well, it rings better that metallic progcore.

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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: BitterJalapeno
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 12:55pm
Not sure if it's what you'd be looking for but Intronaut could be a shout. Their album Prehistoricisms mixes the powerful sounds of atmospheric sludge with prog structures and jazzy post rock influences.

If Mastodon fit the bill, you could consider Bison and Baroness. The former are similar to early Mastodon albeit less intricate although they have the same punkish aggression. Baroness have less outright Aggression but definitely still a proggish touch.

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Star baby, did you deep fry a piece of the Great Barrier Reef?


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by BitterJalapeno BitterJalapeno wrote:

Not sure if it's what you'd be looking for but Intronaut could be a shout. Their album Prehistoricisms mixes the powerful sounds of atmospheric sludge with prog structures and jazzy post rock influences.

If Mastodon fit the bill, you could consider Bison and Baroness. The former are similar to early Mastodon albeit less intricate although they have the same punkish aggression. Baroness have less outright Aggression but definitely still a proggish touch.


To bw fair, only Remission really fit. Thanks, tho.

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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

Neurosis and Mastodon are two of my favorites. I'd like to see your other recommendations.

Prog hardcore metal, huh? Well, it rings better that metallic progcore.

If you're into Neurosis you should check out Swans.

http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/swans" rel="nofollow - http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/swans


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Originally posted by LightningRider LightningRider wrote:

Neurosis and Mastodon are two of my favorites. I'd like to see your other recommendations.

Prog hardcore metal, huh? Well, it rings better that metallic progcore.


If you're into Neurosis you should check out Swans.

http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/swans" rel="nofollow - http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/artist/swans


Oh, I know Swans, buddy. Believe me. Swans had a huge say in my growth as a music junkie. I admit I'm not into the no wave stuff as much as I thought I would be, but SftB, The Seer and White Light are just flawless IMO.

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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2021 at 2:24pm
If most of the examples LightningRider's thinking of are usually described as some flavour of 'core, why not just go with "progcore"?


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2021 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

If most of the examples LightningRider's thinking of are usually described as some flavour of 'core, why not just go with "progcore"?

Damn. So simple.


Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2021 at 11:34pm
^ indeed, but I think they wanted to exclude non-metal hardcore?


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2021 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Bosh66 Bosh66 wrote:

^ indeed, but I think they wanted to exclude non-metal hardcore?


A: He.
B: Yep.


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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2021 at 10:27am
I don’t like to assume 😁


Posted By: LightningRider
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2021 at 10:39am
I watch MLP with my niece and nephew, so I don't get offended. It matters very little to me, but I'll mention it just in case.

With that said, there are progressive hardcore punk bands with little to no metal out there, and I've heard a couple albums in that vain. So, I wanna leave them out. Progressive punk is easier to find in a metal format, anyway.

Writing all this while listening to chamber jazz.

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And the Trogdor comes in the NIIIIGHT!


Posted By: AbubakarGibson
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2023 at 4:02am
I think "progcore" is a pretty cool name, but you're right that it might not fully capture the metal aspect of the genre you're trying to describe. Maybe "progmeth" (short for "progressive metal punk") could work? It's a little clunky, but it does get the point across.



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