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Was Metallica really responsible ?

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    Posted: 13 Jan 2015 at 10:52am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Vic Vic wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Incorporating classical music into metal? YES!
And a damn fine job at that. They perfected a hybrid hinted at since Deep Purple AND pulled it off.

Er, what? Confused 

I think you are confusing Metallica with Yngwie Malmsteen.

Nope. Not the neoclassical type of metal. Cliff Burton was a trained classical musician and incorporated it into the songwriting. Many of those catchy chord progressions have their roots in J.S.Bach amongst others. Subtle but that's what makes it utterly brilliant. I will go along with Metallica as the kings of early thrash. They really did add an extra oomph to the metal world unlike any other of the day.

He had some classical training in college and some piano lessons, which I think is different than a trained classical musician, especially since he was not playing any classical instruments.

Be that as it may, I don't understand the distinction you are making with "neo-classical" and "incorporating classical music into metal". There is no obvious link between Burton's parts and classical music, except for the quiet part in To Live is to Die, which is way too late to credit the band for accomplishing what you say. What you call "subtle", I would call "essentially non-existent". In fact, I would argue that what you say Blackmore and Purple hinted at is way more prominent than anything Metallica did (like the live concerto - Metallica's S&M is shit by the way, just for the record). Cliff's contribution was knowledge of harmony and such, which he passed on to Hetfield and of course his free-spirited sense of songwriting which greatly influenced Metallica, hence the huge difference between Kill em All and Ride the Lightning. The adventurous songwriting is certainly not something pioneered by Metallica, even though I happen to believe that there are few things more perfect than the song Master of Puppets.

However, the main point is that you are grossly overlooking Malmsteen who truly fused classical music and metal, before Metallica and a gazillion times more notably than Metallica  - and his influence can be traced back to Blackmore partially (but how much further) and his documented studying of classical composers (including Bach and Paganini). His influence is undeniable. The fact that they called his stuff "neoclassical" is the dead giveaway. And every genre of metal that has classical music influences takes its cue from Malmsteen really. Before him of course there were many who had traces of direct classical music influences, like Blackmore and Rainbow (Difficult to Cure?), Van Halen's eruption bit, Ozzy's (well, Randy's) Mr Crowley intro, even that Am I Evil? lick at the beginning, just from the top of my head. But all these are just small things, little tastes of classical flavour. And still way more prominent than any Metallica bit (again, save To Live is to Die). And of course this is not even touching upon the prog rock and symphonic rock stuff of the 70s, which did feature actual classically trained pianists as keyboard players for example. But Malmsteen, man, he just totally fused the two, essentially created the hybrid, as you put it.

I love Cliff Burton more than most people and I have a VERY, VERY soft spot for him and I always say that without him Metallica would never have accomplished 1/10th of what they did. But to claim he (and the band) brought classical music to metal is waaaaay off the mark IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 2015 at 4:27am
Zetro-fronted Exodus definitely is one of the most awesome things in the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gabimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2015 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


Interestingly, I did not really like Anthrax back in the day, and I only got into them on The Sound of White Noise,  because I liked how groovy 'Room for One More' is. Then I started really backtracking from there, and now I'm a big fan of the Belladonna-fronted stuff, while I find the John Bush stuff less interesting. I particularly love Among the Living, and I think that 'Indians' is one of the best thrash metal songs of all time. There's some really good stuff on Worship Music too.

Worship Music was a great comeback album Clap


I agree, Anthrax is pretty cool, but I still prefer the Exodus.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


Interestingly, I did not really like Anthrax back in the day, and I only got into them on The Sound of White Noise,  because I liked how groovy 'Room for One More' is. Then I started really backtracking from there, and now I'm a big fan of the Belladonna-fronted stuff, while I find the John Bush stuff less interesting. I particularly love Among the Living, and I think that 'Indians' is one of the best thrash metal songs of all time. There's some really good stuff on Worship Music too.

Worship Music was a great comeback album Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


Interestingly, I did not really like Anthrax back in the day, and I only got into them on The Sound of White Noise,  because I liked how groovy 'Room for One More' is. Then I started really backtracking from there, and now I'm a big fan of the Belladonna-fronted stuff, while I find the John Bush stuff less interesting. I particularly love Among the Living, and I think that 'Indians' is one of the best thrash metal songs of all time. There's some really good stuff on Worship Music too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.


I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


How about Among the Living and Persistence of Time Big smileLOL


Both of those are amazing, I was using Spreading the Disease as an example for speed though

Both definitely are amazing!! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.


I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


How about Among the Living and Persistence of Time Big smileLOL


Both of those are amazing, I was using Spreading the Disease as an example for speed though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.

How about Among the Living and Persistence of Time Big smileLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.

Dude, you're just different! There's no accounting for personal preferences of this sound or that. It's all good. I don't really have a favorite. They all had their moments good and bad. Personally i love Among The Living and Persistence Of Time but i even love their Fistful Of Metal. Their 90s stuff isn't my favorite though

I agree, I'm not too big on the John Bush-era either. I did love 'We've Come for You All' though. I know everyone has their own preferences, I've just never understood why Anthrax gets the least notice of the big four Smile  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.

Dude, you're just different! There's no accounting for personal preferences of this sound or that. It's all good. I don't really have a favorite. They all had their moments good and bad. Personally i love Among The Living and Persistence Of Time but i even love their Fistful Of Metal. Their 90s stuff isn't my favorite though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Vic Vic wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Incorporating classical music into metal? YES!
And a damn fine job at that. They perfected a hybrid hinted at since Deep Purple AND pulled it off.

Er, what? Confused 

I think you are confusing Metallica with Yngwie Malmsteen.

Nope. Not the neoclassical type of metal. Cliff Burton was a trained classical musician and incorporated it into the songwriting. Many of those catchy chord progressions have their roots in J.S.Bach amongst others. Subtle but that's what makes it utterly brilliant. I will go along with Metallica as the kings of early thrash. They really did add an extra oomph to the metal world unlike any other of the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 10:23am
Happy new year UMUR! I lurk from time to time! I like this place! ;)

As for Mustaine's influence, he sure had a hand in shaping thrash metal from the start but the heaviest songs (like Whiplash, the final part of No Remorse, Motorbreath, the Hit the Lights riff) weren't his with the exception of Metal Militia. He wrote Jump in the Fire, Four Horsemen (as Mechanix) and Phantom Lord which are the closest to "traditional" heavy metal. His statements that he created thrash are really self-flattering as he always mentions the solos as being an integral part of it. Hetfield was way more responsible and it can be confirmed with the host of GBH and Discharge shirts he was seen wearing afterwards. He did not know those bands before Kill Em All was released but it is telling that he really appreciated the other extreme stuff of the time. 

Also let us not forget that Dave Mustaine was calling Megadeth the state of the art speed metal band, he wanted to be the fastest and the most technical (and certainly faster and more technical than Metallica, to prove a point).

Anthrax is VERY influential. Perhaps some don't like the kind of influence they had but it is undeniable. For starters, SOD was a HUGE influence to the groove/nu/rap/modern/whatever metal. How many bands have ripped off March of the SOD? That's 1985! The crossover, the image, the skate culture, the I'm the Man single which catapulted them to success, their tour with Public Enemy (unheard of! hip hop and thrash metal?). They really sold more than Slayer. As did Megadeth. 

There is a nice story about all that during the Clash of the Titans tour, when Mustaine was wondering why Slayer got to co-headline (and thus play last some nights) since they were clearly less popular than both Megadeth and Anthrax. And Scott Ian kinda agreed with that. Then famously, Slayer blew both bands out of the water on stage and in the merch sales, which resulted to the other two asking them to play last every night because otherwise the crowd was too exhausted for their shows. And again, famously, Kerry King was saying "serves them fuckers right, they wanted to rotate, we'll rotate!"

Good times. The least popular thrash metal band out of the big 4 destroying live the other two. Metallica of course in 1991 were on a completely different level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 7:23am
Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 4:26am
The Anthrax comment is a personal opinion about the band, but viewed upon objectively they are one of the most successful and influential thrash metal bands of that period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 2:04am
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I don´t think that´s true at all. I think the first four Metallica albums are far more thrashy than most of Megadeth and Anthrax music, just to pull out a few examples of contemporary artists.


Moreso the first 2, to my ears, and I'd mark that down as largely due to Dave Mustaine's influence/writing.  But my main point is that they weren't really big in that sense until after they more or less stopped making thrash metal.

Anthrax has always seemed like a musical footnote to me so I won't comment on them

Anthrax is great,dude!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I don´t think that´s true at all. I think the first four Metallica albums are far more thrashy than most of Megadeth and Anthrax music, just to pull out a few examples of contemporary artists.


Moreso the first 2, to my ears, and I'd mark that down as largely due to Dave Mustaine's influence/writing.  But my main point is that they weren't really big in that sense until after they more or less stopped making thrash metal.

Anthrax has always seemed like a musical footnote to me so I won't comment on them


Edited by Triceratopsoil - 08 Jan 2015 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 1:32pm
Vic Hug Happy new year and nice to see you Again on MMA Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 11:49am
Also, if Crionics is influenced by someone it is most definitely Iron Maiden. Total Maiden worship. And done wonderfully I might add.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 11:45am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Incorporating classical music into metal? YES!
And a damn fine job at that. They perfected a hybrid hinted at since Deep Purple AND pulled it off.

Er, what? Confused 

I think you are confusing Metallica with Yngwie Malmsteen.
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