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MAVIIIVAM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 6:21pm
Hmmm . . .

I'm a HUGE fan of Fredrik Thordendals Solo Album (he should make more!) but I wouldnt exactly call
it "Avant Garde" (imo), the only really thing that is "Weird" about it is the (Harsh)Vocals which may be
really irritating to some, but for me the music is just too brilliant.  I'd put it in the Tech-Thrash/Math Metal
territory (So I guess that means "Prog Metal" LOL).

Here . . .
YOU decide Wink:


The Bonus Track: "Missing Time" really shows his love of Guitarist "Allan Holdsworth" Big smile.

Actually . . .

I'd put Meshuggah's "Catch33" in the Avant Garde catagory for sure!(well . . . it pretty much is all
over the place as Metal goes):

Be prepared for your Brain to implode in the 7th demension . . .

Extreee Note: When listening to above track, 1. Hopefully youre into the Avant Garde stuff. 2. be
patient, this album really had to grow on me, and I had to take it out of context of a typical
Meshuggah Album, this was very experimental for them.  The drums were actually "programmed"
by each member but all the sounds are sampled from Haak's Drum kit (Wacko), the above Track is
meant to be like a "Trip" . . . where that trip goes, is pretty scary Tongue.


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 18 Aug 2010 at 7:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ulfednar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 6:35pm
I'm thinking maybe Ayreon, Ram-Zet or Solefald might fit in around here?











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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kogaionon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by MAVIIIVAM MAVIIIVAM wrote:

Hmmm . . .

I'm a HUGE fan of Fredrik Thordendals Solo Album (he should make more!) but I wouldnt exactly call
it "Avant Garde" (imo), the only really thing that is "Weird" about it is the (Harsh)Vocals which may be
really irritating to some, but for me the music is just too brilliant.  I'd put it in the Tech-Thrash/Math Metal
territory (So I guess that means "Prog Metal" LOL).


The Bonus Track: "Missing Time" really shows his love of Guitarist "Allan Holdsworth" Big smile.

Actually . . .

I'd put Meshuggah's "Catch33" in the Avant Garde catagory for sure!(well . . . it pretty much is all
over the place as Metal goes):

Be prepared for your Brain to implode in the 7th demension . . .



well, special defects incorporates a lot of things from jazz, classical and opera, things based on the polirithmic layer. in comparison with meshuggah that only use polirithmia, i consider fredrik thordendal much more experimental, therefore putting him in "avant-garde"

ps: i preffer "chaosphere" or "nothing" from meshuggah; personally, i consider "catch33" a rather dull album


Edited by kogaionon - 18 Aug 2010 at 7:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kogaionon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Ulfednar Ulfednar wrote:

I'm thinking maybe Ayreon, Ram-Zet or Solefald might fit in around here?


i consider ayreon to be more prog metal than avant-garde

as much as solefald, i think their first album might be considered avant-garde due to it's complex structure and systematic changes in style; i admit that after their first album, my interest in them ran short, so i can't make an opinion about what came after that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2010 at 10:08pm
Ulver, Arcturus and Solefald are awesome! Thumbs Up

Heres a few of my faves:

Thought Industry.
Though the 1st album is like a Tech-Thrash/Math/Prog Metal album with wild left turns, its
the 2nd album that goes totally Avant Garde.  The albums after that sadly start to lose all
metal aspects.  Oberland's brilliant Poetry turned into Metal madness are a great read and
often hillarious.  But its these 2 albums that were way ahead of their time and over the heads
of most . . . maybe still is. (111mzd!).

Confused Unfortunately no-one has put-up tracks from "Songs for Insects" but . . .
2nd Album gets more Avant Garde. "Mods Carve The Pig: Assassins, Toads and God's flesh".
"Date Rape Cookbook":

(Lyrics are also included under Vid at YOUtube).

"Gelatin":


Sculptured
These guys are all over the place, at times sound like Ulver and Arcturus, and then . . .
something else, can be weird but really neet stuff, not afraid to use "Trumpets and Trombones"
either!
Their 1st "The Spear of the Lily is Aureoled" I have not heard till I put this up, but have read about
it since its release (Much like Opeth's 1st 3 albums, many people talking how different they were)
and now I understand why.
"Almond Beauty":


"Between Goldberg":


"Embodiement of the purest form of horror":

(fine tuning their sound and better engineering)


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 18 Sep 2010 at 6:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Any Colour You Like Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2010 at 4:21am
Sculptured are a great band, really good stuff. Anderson (and Walton I think) of Agalloch perform with them. You can hear that tone in their music. Good extended compositions, good feeling - a band to watch out for in the future.

Also, Meshuggah is avant in the mind-bending sense. I love them too, Haake is a damned genius.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kogaionon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2010 at 10:47am
Originally posted by MAVIIIVAM MAVIIIVAM wrote:

Ulver, Arcturus and Solefald are awesome! Thumbs Up

Heres a few of my faves:

Thought Industry.
Thought the 1st album is like a Tech-Thrash/Math/Prog Metal album with wild left turns, its
the 2nd album that goes totally Avant Garde.  The albums after that sadly start to lose all
metal aspects.  Oberland's brilliant Poetry turned into Metal madness are a great read and
often hillarious.  But its these 2 albums that were way ahead of their time and over the heads
of most . . . maybe still is. (111mzd!).

Confused Unfortunately no-one has put-up tracks from "Songs for Insects" but . . .
2nd Album gets more Avant Garde. "Mods Carve The Pig: Assassins, Toads and God's flesh".
"Date Rape Cookbook":

(Lyrics are also included under Vid at YOUtube).


ok, this song somehow reminded me of Comus - First Utterance at some point

anyway, sculptured sound interesting, thanks for sharing. will download them and start to listen to 'em more closely
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2010 at 6:37am
Never heard Comus, but its funny that the melody at the beginning of  a song I sampled
sounds like the same melody on Thought Industry's "Song for Insects"-on the song
"The Challice Vermillion" Smile

Just heard this on YOUtube, and was always intrigued by the Cover Art:

(I believe thats the Vocalist from Twisted Into Form and Spiral Architects
original Singer).

Really cool! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progkidjoel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 8:15am
Age Of Silence are fantastic, I listened to their full length at a friend's house whilst studying last week, actually. Really solid stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 9:28am
^I�ve reviewed the album for Prog Archives and I actually found it rather mediocre. I had a hard time getting through the album enough times to write a review.
 
All but lead vocalist Lars Nedland, who btw is not the lead singer in Spiral Architect and Twisted Into Form, are also members of Winds. Another band I have a hard time really appreciating. Skilled musicians, but most of their stuff fail to captivate me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote topofsm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 1:16pm
I'm late by about a week on this one but I think that Sol Niger Within is one of the definitions of Avant-garde metal. A lot of it is from its jazz influence (free form jazz nonetheless, how avant-garde is that?) but there's other stuff that isn't just genre hopping.





That and "Cosmic Vagina Dentata Organ" and "Magickal Theatre .33." which I can't find a video of anywhere.








Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

^I�ve reviewed the album for Prog Archives and I actually found it rather mediocre. I had a hard time getting through the album enough times to write a review (Age of Silence).
 
All but lead vocalist Lars Nedland, who btw is not the lead singer in Spiral Architect and Twisted Into Form, are also members of Winds. Another band I have a hard time really appreciating. Skilled musicians, but most of their stuff fail to captivate me.


Hey UMUR,
You know, I was ready to "prove you wrong" LOL But by God! You are right and I'm amazed that
Leif Knashaug is NOT the singer of Age of Silence . . . they (both singers) sound Identicle in just
about everyway (though I have only heard AoS on Internet Radio, dont own the album and are
new to me) . . . so far.  I mean listen to these 3 examples:

"Lars Nedland":


"Leif Knashaug":

(Leif was original singer before "�yvind H�geland" but Leif only
appears on Demos).

Leif again:


They sing in the same odd structures, within different musics, I'm amazed!

I have to say I like "Winds" as well. A "Thrashier" Opeth-like sound, but when I first heard them long
ago, I thought the same UMUR. I think thats why I cant be a "Critic" and write about new releases,
my moods change, hearing fluctuates to what I'm "into" at the moment, and sometimes I need to
take an album one "track" at a time to  . . . get it.   I couldnt get into "The Gathering" at 1st when I
bought "How to measure a Planet", then to have "if_then_else" sit on my shelf for 3 years, and
then to re-discover it (long story) and then being a HUGE fan of theirs and "then else" becoming
my fave album in their catalogue (And "Night time Birds") Smile.
This would include MANY bands I did not like at 1st (or Albums), then years later say, "What the
HELL was I thinking?" Embarrassed

Topos (and whomever else), without getting into an argument, just speaking for myself, the only
parts I hear that are Avant Garde in Sol Niger are some interludes in the music with the "Spoken
Word" of Tomas Haak and the "Atmospheric" parts, but those are just little "moods" to coincide
with the lyrical content and music, its not throughout the music like a "Age of Silence" or a Sleepy
Time Gorilla Museum etc. , its not a "constant".
The Jazz/Fusion parts are defintely there (as Fredrik sounds like a Heavy Metal version of Allan
Holdsworth
) through enhanced styles of the Guitar and the added Sax, but its much like Ihsahn's
Solo albums do the same (Sax too) but not in an Avant Garde context throughout (just a few left-
turns).
If this were the case,  ALL "Math Metal/Tech-Metal/Progressive Metal" could be rolled into 1 ball.
I think 90% of Progressive Rock and Metal have Jazz/Fusion influences, along with the Classical,
Blues, World and other sources . . . thats why its in the genre "Progressive", its musical Soup.

Age of Silence I think just teaters over the edge to Avant Garde, because their is a cohesive
melody but just enough "angular/odd-meter" to that melody that in-fact . . . it is Odd.
Sol Niger I believe is 4/4, but like Meshauggah its what they do "within" 4/4, but it has a groove,
it can be odd-timing - take a left-turn, but it goes back to the 4/4, its following a cohesive line,
until we run into those "Atmospheres" that make it seem Avant Garde (does that make any sense,
I can go soak my head in a bucket of Pirahnas if you'd like Tongue).
Again, Meshuggah's "Catch 33" is VERY different than all their other albums.

If it were filtered through one description (like here at MMA) it would be simply "Prog Metal" Wink.
But saying to a Genesis Fan, "Hey, I heard you like Progressive Rock, have you heard
Meshuggah?"
  and then you wonder why that friend is slapping you after the 1st  20 seconds of
Future Breed Machine! LOL.

To each their own, I've heard so many different types of Avant Garde Bands and Math/Tech Metal
(Thrash and Death) Bands that I immediately hear the difference, but sometimes it takes some
time to figure out . . . What the hell IS THIS music anyway!???
(Keep in mind, the average "Metal Head" will listen to both kinds of this music and say . . .
THIS HAS NO SOUL! ITS ALL NOISE!!! LOL).

Thanks for your continued indulgeance in my poop Confused.

Yes Wiki is written by Arm Chair enthusiasts like us, but check them out:

Spiral Architect (not very cohesive):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Architect
Age of Silence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Silence
Special Defects (Sol Niger Within album):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Niger_Within


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 25 Aug 2010 at 4:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 4:15pm
By the way . . .

For those who are not familiar, listen to all the Vids/Audio of Fredrik Thordendal's works
above and Listen to this example of Allan Holdsworth:


Fredrik's "Missing Time":

(This is Fredrik "without" the Metal Wink).

I will now leave this topic alone and save your frustrations Tongue.


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 25 Aug 2010 at 4:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote topofsm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 2:15am
^ Fair enough. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

That being said, Sol Niger Within has far more free jazz influence than any 'standard' math metal release that I've come across, even among Meshuggah's discography. It is notable that when free jazz first became an established genre in the 50s it was also somewhat interchangeably referred to as avant-garde. I'm sure Harry from PA could explain this better than I can (I can't remember if he has an account here or not. I don't think he posts here regularly to say the least).

 These free jazz elements also appear in established avant-garde metal releases, even with groups as popular as Mike Patton's Mr. Bungle in Fantomas. At this point I probably don't need to go much further to explain where he got it from, since nearly everyone knows about his collaborations with John Zorn.

I especially like this video:


Now THAT's avant-garde! (not really metal though)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Angry Scotsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 2:22am
Fredrik Thordendal!
His solo album is great stuff!

Been recently digging motW a lot
Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!



Listen to doom metal, worship Satan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 4:06am
Topofsm . . .
Oh yes! Fredrik's album is definately more "Free Jazz" (Fusion) than most Math Metal Wink.
But I see it "within" the framework of his type of Math Metal (4/4), keep in mind that
Fredrik's big influence is Holdsworth.  Holdsworth is a Jazz/Fusion Guitarist who is very
experimental, free form, lets his fellow musicians use the "space" and uses alot of
"Legato", in other words, he picks the strings with a Pick like other guitarists but he also
"plays" the notes with his right hand/fingers on the Frets - to create a "non-picking"
sound (Legato).
Fredrik does this too, but he also has found a Lead FX that emulates the Legato sound.
(I know it well, as I use to have a Korg Pedal Board where I programmed a similar
effect).  John McLaughlin and Chris Poland (Ohm/Damn the Machine era) also have a
similar sound and they are/or definately embrace the Jazz/Fusion-Free Form sound as
well Smile.

Patton's Projects definately fit in that Free Form Fusion/Metal territory Thumbs Up And I can
hear Primus doing the same at times.

but back to the avante garde . . .


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 26 Aug 2010 at 4:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kogaionon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 4:38pm
brilliant, but the fredrik thordendal album is very hard to find...

i tried looking for it in oslo (via a friend), vienna and prague, but with no luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAVIIIVAM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2010 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by kogaionon kogaionon wrote:

brilliant, but the fredrik thordendal album is very hard to find...

i tried looking for it in oslo (via a friend), vienna and prague, but with no luck


Hopefully this will help Smile

From Thordendals MYspace site (Blog entry):
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=45056367&blogId=263647628

Seems its at Morgan �grens (Drummer extraordinare) site in his Merch Shop! Clap
http://morganagren.com/

Good luck and enjoy!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote topofsm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 12:59am
I ordered it of Morgan Agren's site for ~20 USD without a hassle, so I'd recommend that for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progkidjoel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 2:53am
To be honest, I really can't get into Meshuggah at all after having heard two albums; although I absolutely love Sol Niger Within from Fredrik Thorendal's Special Defects.
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