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adg211288 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 8:05am
I've just noticed that there seems to be a bug with the average rating for albums. I was just browsing the top albums in death metal and noticed this.

Entombed - Clandestine - 4 ratings/ 0 reviews:

2x 5*
1x 4.5*
1x 2.5*

average rating = 4.87

Obscura - Omnivium - 4 ratings/ 4 reviews:

2x 5*
2x 4.5*

average rating = 4.75

The average rating for Omnivium is correct, but Clandestine should actually be 4.25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 8:16am
Are you also taking into consideration the different weighting. Rating only has a lesser rating weight than a review and Collab reviews have a bigger weigting than non-Collab reviews.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 8:32am
Yes I know that, but surely by that logic the Obscura album should be rated higher since it has 4 collab reviews and the Entombed album just has 4 ratings and no reviews?

Edited by adg211288 - 07 Apr 2011 at 8:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2011 at 8:57am
Yeah that�s a bit odd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 1:19am
Well when I go to the page now there are 5 ratings: 2 five stars, one 4.5, one 4, and one 2.5 and the average is 4.83. However, one of the five stars is by Vic, who is a collab. That average works correct if you give his rating the 20x collab weight. I tested a few other albums around  and I know at least this one is the same, so it's not just albums without reviews. Testing this was very annoying because I had to hover over names on the ratings to see who was a collab, so I don't remember which other ones I did, and I didn't do an extensive search because it's almost 3am and I couldn't be bothered. Some of my tests made no sense, but I think that was probably just mistakes on my part. 

Maybe it has always been this way the whole time and nobody noticed until now? Oops.   

Edited by Henry Plainview - 09 Apr 2011 at 2:54am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 4:14am
I was under the impression that the weighting only applies if there is a review, a rating always just being a rating regardless of whose rating it is.

Actually I was also under the impression that the weighting didn't actually apply to the average shown on each album, just how the top lists on each genre page were decided, after all if the weighting applies to the average then by that logic the top album in each sub should be the one with the highest average, which isn't the case in every sub.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 4:35am
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

I was under the impression that the weighting only applies if there is a review, a rating always just being a rating regardless of whose rating it is.

Actually I was also under the impression that the weighting didn't actually apply to the average shown on each album, just how the top lists on each genre page were decided, after all if the weighting applies to the average then by that logic the top album in each sub should be the one with the highest average, which isn't the case in every sub.

A rating only is supposed to be 1 weight no matter who is giving it, but clearly something has gone awry. 

The weighting absolutely applies to the displayed average, the whole point is for the sober collab reviews to outweigh a lot of ratings only from random people so people have a more accurate picture. That's something that can be easily verified with a calculator.

The placement on the list is considering the weight and the average relative to the other albums and is a little bit harder to do by hand because I think you would have to calculate the weight of every album in the list you're talking about. But your problem is that you are assuming the albums with the most weight from reviews and ratings are also the highest rated. That is clearly not always the case. i.e. The difference in weight between Ziltoid the Omniscient (with 4 collab reviews and a member review and more ratings only) and Fear of a Blank Planet (only 3 collab reviews) is greater than the .04% difference in their overall average. 

Edited by Henry Plainview - 09 Apr 2011 at 4:41am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 4:41am
^^^THIS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 4:56am
Ok, I understand it better now. Thank you Henry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 5:24am
I�ve always had trouble with the math, so educate me here. Is there a problem that needs to be reported or not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 6:01am
I'd say yes because going back to the two albums I posted about originally, Obscura's album has 4 collab reviews which should have 20x rating weight each, whereas the Entombed album has no reviews at all, yet clearly has a higher weight rating/placement on the list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2011 at 6:02am
I�ll PM Phil and have him have a look at this thread and see what he thinks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2011 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I�ve always had trouble with the math, so educate me here. Is there a problem that needs to be reported or not?

Yes, it appears that some (perhaps even all) collab ratings are receiving the 20x weight even though there is no review. Only the collab reviews should be weighted 20x, everybody's rating without a review is supposed to be equal (1x). 

(Sorry to repeat but I thought adg's explanation was not very clear)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Angry Scotsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2011 at 4:02am
Wait, is the issue that collab ratings without review are getting the 20X weighting?

I was wondering about that myself a while back
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1454

I took Jonas' advice and PM'd Phil and this was his exact response to me


"It doesn't matter for you because you are a collaborator and the weight for rating only and full text reviews are the same.

For normal user, the weight of a rating only will be ajusted if the user transformed it to a text review (100+ words)."

So if the the problem is collab rating onlys are getting full weight, it seems like for collabs the 20X weight is used regardless of review or not.

edit: it is 5 am I dont care for math....so if there is an actual bug with the rating system itself please have it looked into. The collab weighting for non reviews though is not an issue.


Edited by The Angry Scotsman - 13 Apr 2011 at 4:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2011 at 11:07am
If collab rating only is actually worth 20x, then those averages are actually working out correctly right now, despite consistently higher ratings for Obscura and more collab reviews/ratings than Entombed. Doesn't seem right, but I guess you can't argue against the maths. So now that's cleared up I'm doubting there is a bug with the average ratings after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Angry Scotsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2011 at 9:45pm
According to Phil, (and I'm pretty sure he'd know LOL) collabs get the 20X weight, review or rating only.
So yeah, I'll leave the math to you guys but that is the case. Guess another perk of collabhood!

Of course Henry wouldn't know because he came to MMA, I assume, just to flood us with poniesTongue


Edited by The Angry Scotsman - 13 Apr 2011 at 9:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by The Angry Scotsman The Angry Scotsman wrote:

According to Phil, (and I'm pretty sure he'd know LOL) collabs get the 20X weight, review or rating only.
So yeah, I'll leave the math to you guys but that is the case. Guess another perk of collabhood.

Ok, well then why is it like that on MMA but not PA? It used to be like that on PA, but Max changed it because it's a terrible idea, so why go backwards? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Angry Scotsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by The Angry Scotsman The Angry Scotsman wrote:

According to Phil, (and I'm pretty sure he'd know LOL) collabs get the 20X weight, review or rating only.
So yeah, I'll leave the math to you guys but that is the case. Guess another perk of collabhood.

Ok, well then why is it like that on MMA but not PA? It used to be like that on PA, but Max changed it because it's a terrible idea, so why go backwards? 


OK, well it is?
Not sure why you have to do this, besides the fact you are Henry...if you honestly care enough (I'm sure you do) than PM an admin and inquire about it and ask to have it changed. Might not result in anything but complaining here certainly won't do much.

Not like everything has to be the same anyway...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Angry Scotsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 11:45pm
Also, I thought you were still on break from the internet???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Henry Plainview Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by The Angry Scotsman The Angry Scotsman wrote:

if you honestly care enough

Not really, I'm never going to be rating anything myself here anyway. It's just the principle, but I'm not going to waste time with personal appeals. My futile effort is better spent complaining about the new emoticons. 
Originally posted by The Angry Scotsman The Angry Scotsman wrote:

Also, I thought you were still on break from the internet???

Too much fail. 

Edited by Henry Plainview - 23 Apr 2011 at 11:52pm

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