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Topic ClosedKing Crimson for proto-metal?

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Pekka View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 2:48am
Originally posted by Pekka Pekka wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

yeah, despite the heaviness of the title track Lark's Tongues absolutely is not a proto-metal album.  I mean, Exiles, comeon!
 
Just to stretch this argument a bit, Marid's Gift of Art, comeon! How can Bath be classified as metal? Wink
 
I'm open for having KC here, but pretty much only on the strength of Red as an album. I'd almost like to make an exception with In the Court of the Crimson King, 21st Century Schizoid Man seems such an influential piece to me (don't ask me to back this one up, though, it's just a gut feeling pretty much). Of course there's Pictures of a City on Poseidon, which is very similar, but it came later and broke no new ground. Larks' Tongues would be borderline, I could see that tagged proto as well, the title track takes up a significant portion of the album and is very heavy. I'm not very familiar with THRAK, but The Power to Believe is definitely heavy. Can't say if it's metal heavy, though.
 
Originally posted by The Angry Scotsman The Angry Scotsman wrote:

THRAK, IMHO, is maybe their second best candidate for proto metal!

MMA does work on a by album basis  (Thumbs Up) so even if KC has one album...than fine.
Let's just be realistic. As Pekka said, heavy may not quite be metal heavy. I think we should get as much collab input on KC/what albums.

Red for sure you will have my support. After that it's tough sledding LOL
 
Continuing here on this one. If KC gets added, I can't see THRAK and TPtB classified as proto metal, after all they came out in 90s and 00s. If we decide they're indeed metal heavy, they need another tag.


Edited by Pekka - 25 Jan 2011 at 2:49am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 3:32am
I shall make a brief summary of my beliefs here.

If KC is added to the archives we must be cautious with deciding what albums are listed as metal. In their context heavy may not be metal, since their music is so progressive we have to decide what is truly related to metal.

Red is the only album I feel comfortable listing as proto-metal.
THRAK I am also alright with, but Pekka had a good point. Albums that late can't be proto metal.

IMO prog metal would be appropriate. 


Edited by The Angry Scotsman - 25 Jan 2011 at 3:32am
Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 4:08am
I thought we decided a while ago to forgo even the borderline hard rock/heavy metal cases until we had a stronger collection of more purely metal bands. And now we're considering King Crimson?

Don't get me wrong, 21st Century Schizoid Man and LTiA contain some crazy stuff. I will say that they are perhaps among the heaviest riffs I've ever heard, even as a fan of more extreme metal. But they are far beyond a borderline case.

I do think they definitely had more than "a few sort-of-metal songs". They had a few full blown metal songs, and a good percentage of sort-of-metal songs. However, if you add up all the material that could be even considered metal, you'd be hard pressed IMO to come up with maybe 30% of the band's catalogue. And they haven't even really released an album that's metal. That point has, as far as I know, yet to be refuted in this thread.

The ConstruKction of Light? That's not a metal album. That's just a dissonant album with severe mixing issues. I find far too often people hear a dissonant riff and immediately label it as metal. Such is not always the case.










...and completely off topic, but "Dancing with the Moonlit Night" is totally a metal song. Headbanger
Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 6:18am
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album. 


KC doesn't have a full metal jacket album but they have put out more than one album's worth of essential metal music. IMO that justifies the inclusion by the same logic that got Led Zeppelin included; they also don't have a metal/proto-metal album, but you can't really have a metal archive without Whole Lotta Love, Immigrant Song or Achilles Last Stand either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 6:43am
^I think you�re right Alex. King Crimson don�t have to have one full metal album to be included. Mind you they are suggested for proto metal. That means music that greatly influenced metal. The albums that should be tagged proto metal should be the albums with proto metal songs. Even if there are only few of them on those albums. That means albums like Larks T, Red and Court. This is purely my personal opinion though and as I�ve said before it is entirely up to the proto metal team to decide wether or not King Crimson should be added and which albums should be tagged proto and which should be tagged non-metal. If any of the albums are considered for progressive metal I�m sure the proto team will take that discussion with the progressive metal team.

Edited by UMUR - 25 Jan 2011 at 6:44am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album. 


KC doesn't have a full metal jacket album but they have put out more than one album's worth of essential metal music. IMO that justifies the inclusion by the same logic that got Led Zeppelin included; they also don't have a metal/proto-metal album, but you can't really have a metal archive without Whole Lotta Love, Immigrant Song or Achilles Last Stand either.

If you think about, only INTENSE metal bands have 100 percent metal albums. Everyone from Metallica to Dream Theater throws in slower, less "metallic" songs


Edited by andyman1125 - 26 Jan 2011 at 9:42pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:16am
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album. 
 
I think that since KC have consistently dabbled and returned to the heaviest end of the spectrum that they're probably worth considering, full album or not - you could probably make a very decent and quite long album out of KC's metal and proto metal pieces.


Not actually, I just don't think they belong here. They have a dicography spanning through a +40 year spectrum and you will consider only one separate album and say that the band is metal because of that? Specially knowing just how many line-up changes and stillistic changes they have gone though? It is like saying that the Sahara is a fertile place just because of the few oasis it has.

I'm not against the one album policy, quite the contrary, but it can't be applied as an absolute guideline for adding bands. If we do use that in an absolute way we will end up having major distortions, like there are in PA. Having one metal album among 15 studio albums (most of which do not have noticeable heavy metal influences) and adding a band on that sole basis is one of those distortions, IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:30am
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album. 
 
I think that since KC have consistently dabbled and returned to the heaviest end of the spectrum that they're probably worth considering, full album or not - you could probably make a very decent and quite long album out of KC's metal and proto metal pieces.


Not actually, I just don't think they belong here.
 
Your opinion is repected but you appear to be the lone voice here
 
They have a dicography spanning through a +40 year spectrum and you will consider only one separate album and say that the band is metal because of that?
 
Thats the site rules, correct?
 
Specially knowing just how many line-up changes and stillistic changes they have gone though? It is like saying that the Sahara is a fertile place just because of the few oasis it has.
 
No, what is being said is because there are a number of oasis in the Sahara it means there is water there. Quite a distinct difference.

I'm not against the one album policy, quite the contrary, but it can't be applied as an absolute guideline for adding bands.
 
Its the sites guideline not yours.
 
 If we do use that in an absolute way we will end up having major distortions, like there are in PA.
 
This site and its collaborators do not intend to mirror the workings of PA, it is a completely different site with different attitudes and policies.
 
 Having one metal album among 15 studio albums (most of which do not have noticeable heavy metal influences) and adding a band on that sole basis is one of those distortions, IMO.
 
As said on a few occasions above, that is sufficient to warrant inclusion and will be adhered to. MMA will be an archive not a purists database. That is a lesson many collaborators have taken from previous experiences.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:40am
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album. 
 
I think that since KC have consistently dabbled and returned to the heaviest end of the spectrum that they're probably worth considering, full album or not - you could probably make a very decent and quite long album out of KC's metal and proto metal pieces.


Not actually, I just don't think they belong here. They have a dicography spanning through a +40 year spectrum and you will consider only one separate album and say that the band is metal because of that? Specially knowing just how many line-up changes and stillistic changes they have gone though? It is like saying that the Sahara is a fertile place just because of the few oasis it has.

I'm not against the one album policy, quite the contrary, but it can't be applied as an absolute guideline for adding bands. If we do use that in an absolute way we will end up having major distortions, like there are in PA. Having one metal album among 15 studio albums (most of which do not have noticeable heavy metal influences) and adding a band on that sole basis is one of those distortions, IMO.


Oh boy... It doesn't matter that they have 15 other studio albums. If you think Red is full-blown proto metal, then King Crimson should be added based on that album. Look at it this way... we don't have to always add metal bands. In some cases, we can add metal albums.

What are these "major distortions in PA" that you keep referring to?

Quote It is like saying that the Sahara is a fertile place just because of the few oasis it has.


Maybe the entire Sahara isn't fertile... but that oasis sure is. Do you think it would be right to say "Since this oasis is in the Sahara (which is not fertile), it would be wrong to consider this oasis fertile."? We're not trying to prove that the entire Sahara is fertile - only that oasis. Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:41am
Dammit, Steve! You ninja'd me! AngryTongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:57am
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Dammit, Steve! You ninja'd me! AngryTongue
 
LOL
 
yeah but your Oasis explanation was much better than mine! Approve Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Colt Colt wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Dammit, Steve! You ninja'd me! AngryTongue
 
LOL
 
yeah but your Oasis explanation was much better than mine! Approve Wink


I spent almost 10 minutes writing it! LOLTongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 9:14am
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album. 
 
I think that since KC have consistently dabbled and returned to the heaviest end of the spectrum that they're probably worth considering, full album or not - you could probably make a very decent and quite long album out of KC's metal and proto metal pieces.


Not actually, I just don't think they belong here. They have a dicography spanning through a +40 year spectrum and you will consider only one separate album and say that the band is metal because of that? Specially knowing just how many line-up changes and stillistic changes they have gone though? It is like saying that the Sahara is a fertile place just because of the few oasis it has.

I'm not against the one album policy, quite the contrary, but it can't be applied as an absolute guideline for adding bands. If we do use that in an absolute way we will end up having major distortions, like there are in PA. Having one metal album among 15 studio albums (most of which do not have noticeable heavy metal influences) and adding a band on that sole basis is one of those distortions, IMO.
 
I wasn't saying they had one metal album, I was saying that, over the years and over many albums, they've produced a fair bit of what could easily be considered proto or full progressive metal, as documented in the examples given earlier.
 
I don't buy the Sahara analogy - using that, you would be saying that Genesis couldn't be a Prog Rock band.
 
 
/edit: Dammit!
 
Colt and J-Man assassinated the Sahara analogy much better than I did! ClapClapClapClapClap


Edited by Certif1ed - 27 Jan 2011 at 9:15am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2011 at 7:42am
Since this hasn't been closed, I won't start another thread just for this minor issue.

As ITCOTCK was recognized as proto-metal, I was surprised to see that two of the live albums representing this era were marked as non-metal. The first is Epitaph, which shows the first line-up in all their heavy glory (IMO even more heavy and edgy than on the studio album). The second is Ladies Of The Road, which represents the Islands line-up and tour; while the first disc's metalness can be debated, the second disc consists of a continuous (by means of editing) medley of "Schizoid Men". Pure proto-metal madness!

Thanks for considering this. Big smile And cheers for having KC here!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2011 at 8:37am
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Since this hasn't been closed, I won't start another thread just for this minor issue.

As ITCOTCK was recognized as proto-metal, I was surprised to see that two of the live albums representing this era were marked as non-metal. The first is Epitaph, which shows the first line-up in all their heavy glory (IMO even more heavy and edgy than on the studio album). The second is Ladies Of The Road, which represents the Islands line-up and tour; while the first disc's metalness can be debated, the second disc consists of a continuous (by means of editing) medley of "Schizoid Men". Pure proto-metal madness!

Thanks for considering this. Big smile And cheers for having KC here!


Thanks for pointing that out.  I'll make those changes, and lock this thread now.  Any other KC discussions can be done in other music sections of the forum. Smile
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