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Metal - The Six Genres |
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The Angry Scotsman 
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 Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 3:56am |
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That was all just my personal ranting, I have no intention on changing the current site set up and unless something horrifying is suggested, wont complain in the future.
But yeah, I noticed my list of sub genres getting larger, while the genres themselves seemed smaller and less coherent, so I started going with consolidation instead of fractioning it up. Is it avant? Folk? Well its all progressive in nature, so prog metal it goes. Is Pantera or LoG really thrash metal? Meh, bump em to "metal" Never knew what to call Meshuggah (Prog, Technical?) so Alt Metal it is. All IMHO of course  |
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Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!
Listen to doom metal, worship Satan |
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topofsm
MMA Metal Reviewer 
Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Location: Hate state, USA Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 12:26am |
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I would personally categorize like this:
Traditional heavy metal: Including NWOBHM Death Metal: Including tech-death and prog death. To be honest I don't think melodic death metal fits in here, it doesn't really share a lot of similarities besides the vocals. I'm not sure where they would go though... Black Metal: Often encompasses folk, viking, and ambient/atmospheric metals. Thrash Metal: Encompasses other genres like post-thrash (which is really groove metal) -core Metals: Including metalcore and deathcore. "Flower" metal : Includes prog, power, and symphonic metal. I like to think Avante-garde acts can usually find a home in one of these, so they aren't left out. They usually have a base sound that can be traced to one of these. If they can't I tend to find that they aren't really a metal band and more of an avant-garde band. Also, only the vanilla prog bands fit explicitly with the prog and symphonic bands. For example, while Edge of Sanity is a prog metal band, they are more death than prog. As for alt-metal, I don't really see it as a metal genre. But to each his own. |
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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UMUR
MMA Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team / Retired Admin Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 18088 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 12:44am |
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I think you left out Doom, Glam, industrial and sludge/ post. Where would they fit? ...and let�s not discuss if Glam is metal, because the decision to include that genre is taken and will not be altered.
I think my ideal genre definition would look something like this:
Traditional heavy metal:
Including NWOBHM. No problem with this one. Death metal:
including tech, prog, old school and melodic. I think death metal is death metal. I stand by that opinion. I don�t support the inclusion of additional sub subs.
Grindcore:
I�ve been giving this one a lot of thought. I was the one who suggested Grindcore to have it�s own sub here on MMA, but as a lot of the acts in the genre are closely related to death metal, it might be an idea to make Grindcore a sub sub to death metal instead of having it as it�s own sub. I think that would make sense. I know there are lots of Grindcore acts that are closer to hardcore than death metal, but as long as Grindcore acts still are put into a sub sub and not just into the bigger death metal sub, I would be fine with this idea. Anyone disagree with this?
Black metal:
All black metal, also the folk and viking black metal acts and the ambient/ atmospheric ones. We agree on that one. I think I will let Vehemency comment on this one, but my opinion is that there isn�t a need for additional sub subs here.
Thrash metal:
Including thrash, speed and crossover. I don�t see a need for additional sub subs here but a namechange to Thrash/ Speed/ Crossover might be in order.
Metalcore:
Includes metalcore, deathcore and metallic hardcore ( bands like Hatebreed). I don�t see a need for additional sub subs here.
Progressive metal:
Strictly for "vanilla" progressive metal ( ala Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Queensr�che, Sieges Even and their ilk). The genre has diversified throughout the years, but bands in this genre should reflect what "metal" fans usually perceive as progressive metal and not what those of us coming from PA think it is.
Power metal:
Includes power metal and symphonic. Progressive power metal acts should still be placed in power metal if they are at their core more power metal than progressive. For instance I was happy to note that Symphony X was placed in power metal here on MMA and not in progressive metal.
Alternative metal:
I think this one makes sense. We just have to make sure the sub doesn�t become a garbage can, where we put all the difficult to catagorize acts. I think this particular sub needs close monitoring and a united team who shares opinions about what should be added.
Doom metal:
I agree with doom metal having its own sub. If we have to make changes to doom metal I would suggest an additional sub sub called "doom/ death" to seperate the classic melodic ( clean singing) doom metal acts from the doom metal acts with extreme vocals ( doom/ death, Funeral doom).
Glam metal/ heavy rock:
I always called many of the bands in that sub heavy rock rather than glam, but that�s a personal thing. So my only suggestion for change would be a name thing. I fully support the inclusion of the genre on MMA
 .Proto-Metal:
I think this one is important, but it�s one of those subs that needs close monitoring and probably a team vote system. There�s bound to be controversy regarding some of the additions in this sub.
Sludge/ Post-metal:
I think there are enough artists with a similar and distinct sound to warrant a seperate sub for those styles. Sludge and post-metal are closely related genres and a lot of acts incorporate elements from both. Therefore I think one sub makes sense.
Industrial metal:
I think this sub makes sense too. But it should be reserved for acts that can�t be catagorized in other genres. For example there are lots of industrial black metal around. I think those acts should be placed in black metal rather than industrial unless the industrial element overshadows the black metal ditto. It�s a case by case thing.
That leaves folk metal, avant garde metal, Goth metal and symphonic metal.
Symphonic metal:
I would either move symphonic metal to the power metal sub or make it a sub sub to power metal. Some of the bands in the genre probably belong in death or black metal and should be moved to those subs.
Avant garde metal:
The problem with avant garde is that you can�t say it�s a sub with acts with a similar sound. They are all experimental, unconventional and very hard to place in other genres, but most could probably be distributed to other genres with some effort. I�m biased here.
Folk metal:
I don�t see Folk metal as a distinct style ( more a sound). Most acts from this sub could easily be distributed to other subs like traditional heavy metal, power metal, death metal and black metal. This would be the first sub I would eliminate.
Goth metal:
Hmm...I�ll let the experts talk about this one. I don�t really have enough knowledge of the genre to make a valid comment. Edited by UMUR - 19 Nov 2010 at 4:19am |
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The Angry Scotsman
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 08 Aug 2010 Location: New Jersey, US Status: Offline Points: 1076 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 1:04am |
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G'ah! How could I forget doom metal?
 That has its own sub genre for me as well. I suppose it could be just "metal" but it's distinct enough for me to have its own. I have like no industrial metal but that would probably warrant its own for me as well. I put post metal under prog metal Sludge....I would just list as metal, or whatever I think is the best fit. I don't really think sludge is a distinct one. Again all IMO and I am not asking for any changes to the site. And glam metal.....I'll just let that one go  |
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Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!
Listen to doom metal, worship Satan |
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The Angry Scotsman
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 08 Aug 2010 Location: New Jersey, US Status: Offline Points: 1076 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 1:05am |
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This is kind of fun actually
 I may make an official metal listing sometime soon, just for kicks |
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Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!
Listen to doom metal, worship Satan |
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Vehemency
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 972 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 2:03am |
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Something that I've been wondering about the MMA genres is sludge/post-metal... is sludge absolutely post-metal? I know it's easier to put them under the same title, but the same time isn't it confusing to see the sludge tag under a band that doesn't really incorporate anything from sludge?
This is more of a question, because I have no knowledge of this subject. |
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The Angry Scotsman
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 2:35am |
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I really don't like the subgenre "sludge metal" because I really don't see it as distinct.
More a style than genre IMHO. Especially since sludge metal bands are listed as doom/prog/post metal anyway. Anyone have any opinions on what IS sludge metal anyway? Is it even really something distinctive? While a lot of post metal does incorporate sludge, again I'm not sure what that means aside from really heavy, churning kinda trippy riffing, sludge is not absolutely post. Oi, too much   Edited by The Angry Scotsman - 19 Nov 2010 at 2:35am |
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Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!
Listen to doom metal, worship Satan |
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Certif1ed
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 29 Mar 2010 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 473 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 2:45am |
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You're right, it doesn't exist any more, but it definitely existed, as anyone "who was there", and the number of bands who pay tribute to that remarkable movement will testify - and let's remember that this "New Wave of Heavy Metal" was terribly unpopular among those who weren't rabid fans, and rabid fans probably didn't push the 100,000 mark too hard, most of whom were in obscure bands so might not count as fans anyway - but it's not a genre, it wasn't entirely British, and it was founded on the old school of hard/blues rock, so I can understand anyone's confusion. It confuses me and I think it's fantastic...
...pauses for breath
Never a truer word.
Indeed - there's no point discussing this question, as some Glam Rock definitely is Metal. Not only that, but you'll find most of the best defined roots of all modern metal genres that aren't in Black Sabbath are in the music of The Sweet (and that includes Judas Priest). The Black Sabbath influence didn't truly enter metal until the 1980s. Before that, the influence was largely Priest, and since Priest grew out of Glam, it could be said that Glam is the true metal. Sorry about that.
If you dig back further, you'll find that metal's clearest roots lie in Surf music (as opposed to the more fuzzy, but nevertheless obvious root that is rock and roll. Surf is the first "branch" in the development path to metal). I hope we're all Beach Boys and Jan and Dean fans here...
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UMUR
MMA Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team / Retired Admin Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 18088 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 3:12am |
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A buddy and I, used to dig through his mother�s old singles collection ( she was a giant The Sweet fan) and I remember headbanging to The Sweet at the age of 10, so yes The Sweet is certainly an important act in metal IMO.
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UMUR
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 3:17am |
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It�s kind of like the Cantebury sub on PA.
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Time Signature
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 4:18am |
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Come to think of it, maybe we should just stick to the genres we have already.. otherwise, we might end up in a real fanboy genre w*nekry warmassacre thing. ;-)
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UMUR
MMA Special Collaborator
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 4:24am |
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On the other hand it�s probably easier to discuss and implement changes now, than when we have 30.000 acts in the database. |
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Certif1ed
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 8:37am |
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As I add (and listen to) more and more acts that are listed in the NWoBHM encyclopaedia, I'm becoming more and more convinced that it's in no way a subgenre of "Traditional" - after all, most of it isn't traditional. If you click on Traditional, all the NWoBHM bands are listed without NWoBHM qualifiers - I don't think it follows that if you like Trad, you'll like everything in NW - although I guess you might have your ears well and truly opened. With a chainsaw, sledgehammer and pile driver.
Unless we feel that bands like Venom and Raven, etc., can now be considered Traditional, given they crawled out of their holes over 30 years ago. You can bet your life/guitar that yer traditional metal fan wouldn't listen to Venom 30 years ago - it took a special kind of person to see what they were really about.
Just asking really, as I'm not sure how Trad. works.
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UMUR
MMA Special Collaborator
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 9:07am |
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Not that I�m an expert in NWoBHM but traditional heavy metal is a pretty broad subgenre, so I�m sure a lot of the acts in NWoBHM fits just fine in traditional as well. Venom! eh I guess we just sometimes have accept that some band�s are difficult to place right. And you are right that genre definitions have changed a lot over the last 30 years. Some definitions still hold true while others are scarcely used anymore. It�s like the discussion we had months ago about AC/ DC. Today they are more or less considered a hard rock act while in the eighties people called them metal.
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Time Signature
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 9:18am |
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I actually think that their 80s stuff is more metal than the post-Razor's Edge releases. |
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martindavey87
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:01am |
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Personally, I consider anything with a 'post' before it to be the same as it's meant to be the post of. IE: Post-Hardcore = Hardcore (I have no idea what this means)
Post-Metal = Metal
Oh, another genre name I dislike, anything with 'Math'.
Math Metal = Prog Metal
Math Rock = Indie, possibly Prog Rock
This guy I went to college with fucking LOVED telling everyone he's in a Math Rock band, and everyone's like 'ooooh, they're Math Rock', and then I hear it and I'm like 'they're just a generic rock band wtf?!'.
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m@x
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Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Québec, Canada Status: Offline Points: 947 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:05am |
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UMUR , thanks for your detailled reply and we can start from here and go with the first major changes in the sub-genres system.  Ok, here's my immediate action recommendations:
More discussions needed:
I can take actions today, but need some approbation by you guys first. |
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martindavey87
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:08am |
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See, now I feel kinda bad about this. Like it's all my fault.
Now you have to reshuffle all these bands etc coz Valarius just couldn't keep his mouth shut.
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UMUR
MMA Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team / Retired Admin Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 18088 |
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:11am |
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I think it might be an idea to let people discuss these things for maybe a week before making changes M@X. Some of these changes will have great effect on the site, so it might be better to be safe than sorry.
I�ll make my own comments to the suggestions a bit later. Right now it�s family time  .Edited by UMUR - 19 Nov 2010 at 10:15am |
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Time Signature
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Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 10:13am |
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I think hat he melodic death metal subsub could be helpful, but I don't know about technical and progressive death metal, because it's just death metal which is technical or progressive, while melodic death metal, as mentioned, has become established as a subgenre proper (like brutal death metal has). I am not sure whether I would support moving grindcore to death metal - I mean Anal Cunt don't strike me as being death metal, and neither do the debut releases by Napalm Death and Carcass. |
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The Angry Scotsman wrote: