Do you believe in God?

Well since you say you care, Jeff.

I was raised Catholic.
Dad is Catholic, Mom is Russian Orthodox.
Pretty sure they chose to raise my brother and I as Catholic to help please his Italian parents
Anywho, so yeah I was raised Catholic. Went to church every Sunday, went to CCD, did it all.
However, never really thought about it. Just did it, after all I was a kid. Family was never VERY religious anyway. We never talked about it outside Sunday, or even on Sunday. Never forced it on us, we all just kind of did it.

In 8th grade (around age 13 here) I started to not really want to do it. I stopped going to CCD and said I didn't really want to continue (and I never got my confirmation done therefore). Around the same time my mother had some issues, some being:
-She was very ill a year or 2 before and we didn't go to church. We got a letter asking for their money...
-In a conversation with my younger brother it came out he didn't know the story of Noah, which really made her ask what the hell are we doing in CCD then!?
-This came after...but my mother did feel bad about being active (even though she has raised serious questions about church (organized religion)). Not sure why...regardless she talked to someone who said "OK, just send the check every month and we'll list your family as "active"". Wasn't real flattering.

That's the background. My mother believes in some type of God, I have no idea about my father, he's secular anyway, my brother is a pretty militant atheist and I believe in Deism.

Long story short: God. I don't like saying that word due to its connotations but its easier. I like "grand architect of the universe" This is not the white bearded dude in the sky. I also HATE saying "he" I believe this force is more along those lines, but again bear with me for simplicity.
Anyway, god set things in motion. He may have started things, but from that moment, everything is on its own.

Thus god doe not intervene in our lives.
One staple of Deism is self determination. We have the abilities to figure out our own problems. We have the power to control our lives. Some Deists still believe in prayer as meditation, I do not.

I do not like "organized religion" of any kind, any "holy books", miracles.
I like to think of nature as my god. Looking at, and being one with, nature gives me a feeling I cant explain. It is an amazing harmony of perfection. It may be the only thing that touches me in any way like that.

OK that was long and probably rambling. I'd be free to elaborate/answer anything Jeff.

The Angry Scotsman wrote:   I'm a Deist

Oh Jeff I'm glad you mentioned a walk in the woods with Agalloch. I have that as one of my hobbies on FB (and mentioned it on PA like 100 times). The Mantle at night, while its raining, just sitting in the woods.
I cannot put it into words.

As for what you said: Yes, from lots of talk with people from both sides there is no doubt I am much much closer to the atheist/non theist camp. As I said, and you as well, I don't believe in any holy book, organized religion, miracles (as its generally taught) prayer, and even my "higher power" is not the typical god of Abrahamic Religions.

I also don't think Jesus was divine or anything (since god does not interfere with our lives). No way to prove, but just from as much thought I could use... I believe Jesus was just a man, who probably was preaching peace, love, the typical generic beliefs of any religion, and it got corrupted over time into what Christianity is. But while some people have said there was NO Jesus at all...I disagree, and he was an enlightened man, but that's about it.

Whew, ok as for nature. I don't believe nature is god. (Notice I never capitalize god, or "him" when I use that, god is just the easiest word..) I'll admit that was probably a confusing thing to say. I'm not opposed to the idea of just using nature as the way to call it. But we got into a sticky wicket of words and "hippie" BS

As I've said, god is just easier...especially when attempting to explain "Well, I think god is just kind of an inexplainable force, maybe. Like we are all one, everything is connected, and I mean everything). Sorry again, I'm not 100% sure myself and really...it makes sense in my head but its damn tough to put into words.

The Angry Scotsman wrote: Oh Jeff I'm glad you mentioned a walk in the woods with Agalloch. I have that as one of my hobbies on FB (and mentioned it on PA like 100 times). The Mantle at night, while its raining, just sitting in the woods. I cannot put it into words. As for what you said: Yes, from lots of talk with people from both sides there is no doubt I am much much closer to the atheist/non theist camp. As I said, and you as well, I don't believe in any holy book, organized religion, miracles (as its generally taught) prayer, and even my "higher power" is not the typical god of Abrahamic Religions. I also don't think Jesus was divine or anything (since god does not interfere with our lives). No way to prove, but just from as much thought I could use... I believe Jesus was just a man, who probably was preaching peace, love, the typical generic beliefs of any religion, and it got corrupted over time into what Christianity is. But while some people have said there was NO Jesus at all...I disagree, and he was an enlightened man, but that's about it.

I'm don't really argue much about "whether or not Jesus existed" topic with people... I think it's somewhat irrelevant. Since miracles are (by definition) impossible, Jesus was (at most) a carpenter who led a good life and sent a good message to people. I don't think there's any actual evidence for his existence, but it's pretty irrelevant anyway. Once you strip away the miracle claims, you simply have a man who preached the word of God.

Whew, ok as for nature. I don't believe nature is god. (Notice I never capitalize god, or "him" when I use that, god is just the easiest word..) I'll admit that was probably a confusing thing to say. I'm not opposed to the idea of just using nature as the way to call it. But we got into a sticky wicket of words and "hippie" BS As I've said, god is just easier...especially when attempting to explain "Well, I think god is just kind of an inexplainable force, maybe. Like we are all one, everything is connected, and I mean everything). Sorry again, I'm not 100% sure myself and really...it makes sense in my head but its damn tough to put into words.

I understand where you're going with this... I can definitely see how it may be difficult to explain.

I'm with Andy on deism. I don't think it's particularly logical (again, because of the entire "evidence" factor), but I do think it is the most logical and least corrupt religious belief.

J-Man wrote: I'm don't really argue much about "whether or not Jesus existed" topic with people... I think it's somewhat irrelevant. Since miracles are (by definition) impossible, Jesus was (at most) a carpenter who led a good life and sent a good message to people. I don't think there's any actual evidence for his existence, but it's pretty irrelevant anyway. Once you strip away the miracle claims, you simply have a man who preached the word of God.

andyman1125 wrote: J-Man wrote: I'm don't really argue much about "whether or not Jesus existed" topic with people... I think it's somewhat irrelevant. Since miracles are (by definition) impossible, Jesus was (at most) a carpenter who led a good life and sent a good message to people. I don't think there's any actual evidence for his existence, but it's pretty irrelevant anyway. Once you strip away the miracle claims, you simply have a man who preached the word of God. I go with the Unitarian belief on Jesus - I'm sure he existed, but he was just a greatly moralistic guy, not the "Son of God." He had some interesting points, some of them I disagree with (and so does the rest of society), but a lot of his teachings are good moral boundaries.  When people say "Christian morality," it really pisses me off (sadly that is the exact subject of my religion class this year). There is no such thing as Christian Morality. There is morality, but Christianity has nothing to do with it but to slap another Christian tag on something to call it "good."

I would disagree heavily with your second point. The difference between Christian morality and purely secular morality is huge. One of them is based on reason and logic and another is an appeal to an authority. Christianity is based off of a set book of rules from God - according to him you may do this and may not do something else. That's not deciding your own moral decisions - that's doing something because that's what somebody else tells you to do.

The motives behind my moral decisions and a Christian's moral decisions are often different - When I do something, I determine if it's moral or not by analyzing the consequences and benefits of my actions. Some Christians may use this same mindset, but a few things like "God said so", "I don't want to go to hell", and "I want to go to heaven" make our moral decisions have entirely different motives.

And, yes, I do hate how Christianity is associated in Western society with "being good".

J-Man wrote: andyman1125 wrote: J-Man wrote: I'm don't really argue much about "whether or not Jesus existed" topic with people... I think it's somewhat irrelevant. Since miracles are (by definition) impossible, Jesus was (at most) a carpenter who led a good life and sent a good message to people. I don't think there's any actual evidence for his existence, but it's pretty irrelevant anyway. Once you strip away the miracle claims, you simply have a man who preached the word of God. I go with the Unitarian belief on Jesus - I'm sure he existed, but he was just a greatly moralistic guy, not the "Son of God." He had some interesting points, some of them I disagree with (and so does the rest of society), but a lot of his teachings are good moral boundaries.  When people say "Christian morality," it really pisses me off (sadly that is the exact subject of my religion class this year). There is no such thing as Christian Morality. There is morality, but Christianity has nothing to do with it but to slap another Christian tag on something to call it "good." I would disagree heavily with your second point. The difference between Christian morality and purely secular morality is huge. One of them is based on reason and logic and another is an appeal to an authority. Christianity is based off of a set book of rules from God - according to him you may do this and may not do something else. That's not deciding your own moral decisions - that's doing something because that's what somebody else tells you to do. The motives behind my moral decisions and a Christian's moral decisions are often different - When I do something, I determine if it's moral or not by analyzing the consequences and benefits of my actions. Some Christians may use this same mindset, but a few things like "God said so", "I don't want to go to hell", and "I want to go to heaven" make our moral decisions have entirely different motives. And, yes, I do hate how Christianity is associated in Western society with "being good".

Yes, society needs to be secular.

As I probably have said, I don't care at all whatever you believe, and you are free to believe what you want.
But general society needs to be secular, and that especially means the law of man, not god.

Live your life by whatever moral compass you choose but I agree deferring to the law of god pisses me off.

It is true

"Treat other as you wish to be treated"
"Be good to your fellow man"

All that good stuff is pretty much the core of every religion/belief. Not that you even need a religion to be taught that stuff! So yeah...belonging to a specific organized church seems silly