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Hard Rock - WE NEED YOUR HELP

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Category: Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements
Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2376
Printed Date: 21 Aug 2018 at 5:38am
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Topic: Hard Rock - WE NEED YOUR HELP
Posted By: Andyman1125
Subject: Hard Rock - WE NEED YOUR HELP
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 7:06pm
As many of you may have noticed we have welcomed a new sub-genre into the MMA family of metal - Hard Rock! As many of the artists here on MMA filed under various sub-genres (most notable Alt. and Proto metal) would be a much better fit in Hard Rock, the collaborator teams would like to implore the members of MMA to help us out. 
So, if you know of or see an artist on MMA that you think would fit better in Hard Rock, please post in this thread! Big smile

NOTE: This thread is NOT for suggestions; please post those in the suggestions forum found http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1" rel="nofollow - here .

Also, the Hard Rock genre page can be found http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/hard-rock%28subgenre%29.aspx" rel="nofollow - here .


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Replies:
Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 4:19pm

"Nevermind" is hard rock?  There are people that will kill for that, if they don't succumb to endless laughter first. What was wrong with Alternative metal?

Also, "Moving Pictures" hard rock?  Way too refined for that. Don't agree at all.

Censored


Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:




Also, "Moving Pictures" hard rock?  Way too refined for that. Don't agree at all.

Censored


It's there because it isn't remotely metal.


Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 2:00am
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:




Also, "Moving Pictures" hard rock?  Way too refined for that. Don't agree at all.

Censored


It's there because it isn't remotely metal.


Then it should be marked non-metal. Or is Hard Rock the bin of the site?
Seriously, on a Metal site with 20 sub-genres, how can Nirvana and Rush be in the same place? That's absurd.


Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 2:50am
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:




Also, "Moving Pictures" hard rock?  Way too refined for that. Don't agree at all.

Censored


It's there because it isn't remotely metal.


Then it should be marked non-metal. Or is Hard Rock the bin of the site?
Seriously, on a Metal site with 20 sub-genres, how can Nirvana and Rush be in the same place? That's absurd.

Karl, the site is very much in its infancy.

We are trying to ensure this site grows into an archive ( a proper archive - at this point I often suggest people look up the meaning) 

There will always be inconsistencies and controversies in genre placements. 

There are hundreds that stand out a mile at PA, for example Haken a HUGE PROG METAL band sit in Heavy Prog Confused

The Hard Rock genre has only been in place a few days and we are still formulating the rules and guidelines for placement. This may mean that some bands are moved in or even moved out again.

Please bear with us during this stage but continue to alert or question band or album additions that may need more thought.

....and no Hard Rock won't turn into a Crossover Wink





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Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 3:14am
Originally posted by Colt Colt wrote:


Karl, the site is very much in its infancy.
We are trying to ensure this site grows into an archive ( a proper archive - at this point I often suggest people look up the meaning)
There will always be inconsistencies and controversies in genre placements.

--> Yeah sure, that's why I went into this thread, to make it better Smile
I realize may have sounded a bit hard, but after all it's the hard rock place right

There are hundreds that stand out a mile at PA, for example Haken a HUGE PROG METAL band sit in Heavy Prog Confused
--> Don't tell me, but the Heavy team won't let go of them Confused

The Hard Rock genre has only been in place a few days and we are still formulating the rules and guidelines for placement. This may mean that some bands are moved in or even moved out again.

Please bear with us during this stage but continue to alert or question band or album additions that may need more thought.

--> I'll be gentle next time.

....and no Hard Rock won't turn into a Crossover Wink

--> I will suggest Björk for hard rock Approve



Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 3:44am
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:


"Nevermind" is hard rock?  There are people that will kill for that, if they don't succumb to endless laughter first. What was wrong with Alternative metal?

Censored
 
I think Nirvana is definitely a borderline act. I suppose the biggest reason they're here is Bleach, but Nevermind and In Utero are seriously dancing on the fence of being "hard" enough or not. In Utero has some quite heavy elements, but I don't really hear anything that would make them fit into an actual metal category. They were never seriously considered for Alternative Metal, at least to my knowledge.
 
I must say I was surprised to see their addition, and if it was my decision, I'd probably have left Nirvana and Pearl Jam out. But they're here and I'm happily working on their discographies. Smile


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Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 4:11am

At least they don't fit in the history of hard rock, certainly not when looking from a historic perspective. Whitesnake and Aerosmith, that's what we called hard rock here in the early 90s.

Nirvana continued the punk of the Pixies and the Wipers, mixed with some proto-sludge of The Melvins (on Bleach especially), both styles being very anti-mainstream and nothing ado with the hard rock of their era.

They should be here for Bleach, could be here for Nevermind, but not in hard rock.They are Grunge, part of Alt Metal.



Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:03am
I always thought of grunge and hard rock to be similar in that most groups with these labels really do not share much of a common sound, aside from being guitar-based rock.  Some bands labelled grunge had more of a metal side to them (AIC, Soundgarden), while some don't sound much like metal at all or the bands were never associated with the metal scene.  Same goes for hard rock.  I thought of that tag to essentially be a substitute for being a heavy rock, and different bands achieve that heaviness by different means.

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Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:04am
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:

They are Grunge, part of Alt Metal.

I don't see it that way. Grunge is a pretty lousy genre tag with a wide variety of rock music held within. Of the "big four" Alice in Chains and Soundgarden were by far the heaviest, and thus they were added right when the site took off. Pearl Jam on the other hand is mostly a classic rock band and Nirvana was a punk rock band. It was the style of clothes and the location that pulled these bands under the same tag, not so much the music. I don't hear metal elements in PJ or Nirvana. By something of a stretch I can see them in hard rock, but that would require opening the can of worms called "define hard rock", and I'm not prepared to go there Tongue 

Ah, too late LOL

I agree that these bands don't fit the general idea I have of the genre called "hard rock", but they play rock music with a hard touch.


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Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:14am

Genre tags can be about more then just the music. Wasn't Punk rather a fashion then a style of music? There is as much difference betwee Sex Pistols, Buzzcocks, Damned and the Clash as between the 4 Grunge guys above, yet they're all punk.

I guess that clarifies the bigger part of my shock of seeing Nirvana in Hard Rock. A punk-rock subculture band between the mainstream acts of the dinosaur generation. It's so wrong, it's like re-writing history.

(Mind you, it's not that I don't like hardrock)




Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:21am
Didn't Motorhead have strong associations with the punk scene back in their earlier years?

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Posted By: Wilytank
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:22am
Isn't newer Motley Crue more hard rock oriented?

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Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:24am
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:


Genre tags can be about more then just the music. Wasn't Punk rather a fashion then a style of music? There is as much difference betwee Sex Pistols, Buzzcocks, Damned and the Clash as between the 4 Grunge guys above, yet they're all punk.

I guess that clarifies the bigger part of my shock of seeing Nirvana in Hard Rock. A punk-rock subculture band between the mainstream acts of the dinosaur generation. It's so wrong, it's like re-writing history.

(Mind you, it's not that I don't like hardrock)



Yep, I agree that they're all "grunge", but I don't agree with the "grunge is a part of alt metal" thing Wink Some grunge bands can easily be classified metal. Just because The Clash dabbled in reggae, I wouldn't put Sex Pistols in Reggae Archives, if this makes any sense Tongue

Originally posted by Wilytank Wilytank wrote:

Isn't newer Motley Crue more hard rock oriented?

I'd say perhaps even from Theatre of Pain onwards. With the exception of the self-titled.


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Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 9:59am
To my ears, "Grunge" is a recycled fusion of hard rock/heavy psych/metal/punk which was alternative to the mainstream of the day. Nirvana's Nevermind was the groundbreaking album that brought "Grunge" out of Seattle to the world. One of the most influential albums of the '90's and I would go as far to say all time. IMO, "Grunge" was a movement and also a sound and style of music.


Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:

Originally posted by Colt Colt wrote:

 There are hundreds that stand out a mile at PA, for example Haken a HUGE PROG METAL band sit in Heavy Prog Confused

--> Don't tell me, but the Heavy team won't let go of them Confused  I'll make sure they're moved with the new album Wink



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Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 1:54am

Yeah, we got a mole in the heavy team now LOL


Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 10:39am
If this isn't hard rock, I do not what it is:
 
 
IMO, Pearl Jam is on the hard rock end of Grunge as Nirvana is more on the punk side.
 
I've looked up numerous definations/descriptions of "grunge", or as I prefer to call it , the "Seattle Sound". I'm wondering if anybody else has. I think some "metalheads" are hammers...everything looks like a nail.Wink
 
Is a few comments from one collab that hardly contributes to the site going sway the admin. I hope not.


Posted By: Stephen
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 11:10am
well i guess right now, anything that fits alternative rock is okay to be put in hard rock, and maybe later on if we already introduce Alternative Rock, then we'll rearrange all the bands. Probably the idea is to add as many bands as possible, which of course, is still in the close relation to that genre.


Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 1:59pm
I believe hard rock is as far as the expansion is ever going to go, I for one can't see the point in adding basic alt rock bands to a site that has never dealt with basic rock, be it alt or indie or anything with no connection with metal. 

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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 4:50pm
I agree.

I don't think there will be anymore expansions in the "softer-than-metal" direction. Hard rock intertwined with metal and often the two overlap, which is why the Hard Rock category was introduced. I personally think that alternative rock would be too far from metal, and it would allow for the addition of clearly non-metal bands like The Cure, U2, Saybia, Suede and whatnot - it would, however, be perfect material for a Rock Music Archives.

I do not think that any of the hard rock additions made so far are that problematic - controversial, perhaps, but not out of place on a metal site. That's just my opinion.


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Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:


Is a few comments from one collab that hardly contributes to the site going sway the admin. I hope not.


huh? do opinions get more validity with the amount of work or posts you make?

I've done my thing. I find Nirvana in hard rock absurd, as well as having Nirvana and Rush in one place.
If you all think that that is just fine then I'm wrong, or at least biased by what the press in my county sees as hard rock. Big deal.
And I gave no opinion on Pearl Jam whatsoever, I don't even have one.


Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 08 Sep 2011 at 5:05pm
Yea Nirvana in Hard Rock is a bit iffy IMO.

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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 1:16am

At this stage in the site's development there is not a precise fit for Nirvana.

IMO they are not Alt.Metal and their music also contrasted that of traditional Hard Rock.

However, I can remember the stir they made in the music scene at the time, I can remember Metal Hammer changing forever following the release of "Nevermind" There were pages and pages dedicated to them.

Let me state again - Metal Hammer!

This site is called Metal Music ARCHIVES.

Nirvana influenced so many metal bands, they have to be here. The perfect placement will come later.

"Rome was not built in one day" John Heywood





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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 2:13am
I agree that Nirvana as hard rock isn't exactly accurate for me, but I can't say that they shouldn't be here at all, for reasons pointed out above. To me Nirvana is the sort of act that would be a fit for a theoretical 'metal related' sub, which to me implies not metal (or hard rock) themselves, but too important to not be listed at all. Not sure if there has ever been thoughts of MMA having a metal related sub like PA has prog related (IMO it could potentially be a minefield if we did), but IMO that's the best way for an act such as Nirvana to fit on a metal site. My pennies worth, anyway.

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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 2:52am
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:


Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

Is a few comments from one collab that hardly contributes to the site going sway the admin. I hope not.
huh? do opinions get more validity with the amount of work or posts you make?


Of course not - Phil is just being a rude bastard again. Ignore him - I do!

Originally posted by Stooge Stooge wrote:

Didn't Motorhead have strong associations with the punk scene back in their earlier years?


Yes - they gigged heavily, played and recorded with the Damned and the various bands that came from the Chiswick stables. The Damned released the first "punk" album in the UK, "Neat, Neat, Neat" - and it's hard to tell the difference between that album and Hard or Indie Rock in places.

Together, Motordamned released a cover of The Sweet's "Ballroom Blitz".



Originally posted by Andyman1125 Andyman1125 wrote:

As many of you may have noticed we have welcomed a new sub-genre into the MMA family of metal - Hard Rock! As many of the artists here on MMA filed under various sub-genres (most notable Alt. and Proto metal) would be a much better fit in Hard Rock, the collaborator teams would like to implore the members of MMA to help us out.

So, if you know of or see an artist on MMA that you think would fit better in Hard Rock, please post in this thread!


The line is a very difficult one - in many bands' cases it could be that certain albums are Hard Rock rather than Proto Metal, for example - and on many albums, there will be a mix of Proto and Hard Rock.

In the latter case, I'd suggest leaving the album in Proto, even if there are only 2 or 3 Proto Metal songs - e.g. Dust.

NWoBHM is a special case - it was never a style, it was a "movement" comprising many styles, so there are many bands which would arguably be better described as Hard Rock, who are NWoBHM just for being in the right place at the right time - nothing to do with the sound or style.


The guideline I would offer is that;
- Hard Rock is more noticeably based on Blues ,so there will be 12-bar patterns and standard pentatonic licks which are obvious, classic examples being AC/DC's "The Jack" and "The Rocker".

- Heavy Psych, in which the riffs will not be sharp and clear, but fuzzy and slurry, with the trademark pentatonic soloing of that genre which may go off the beaten track somewhat, but will bear all the hallmarks of improvisation rather than a considered solo.


This Hard Rock genre is a great idea, but I can see the rows already...

That said, all suggestions should be considered on their own merits, and not dismissed as dumb, since everyone has an opinion on this matter.


Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 3:04am
Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:

Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:


Is a few comments from one collab that hardly contributes to the site going sway the admin. I hope not.


huh? do opinions get more validity with the amount of work or posts you make?

I've done my thing. I find Nirvana in hard rock absurd, as well as having Nirvana and Rush in one place.
If you all think that that is just fine then I'm wrong, or at least biased by what the press in my county sees as hard rock. Big deal.
And I gave no opinion on Pearl Jam whatsoever, I don't even have one.
 
My apologies. Completely uncalled for. Totally out of line.


Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 3:14am
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by bonnek bonnek wrote:


Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

Is a few comments from one collab that hardly contributes to the site going sway the admin. I hope not.
huh? do opinions get more validity with the amount of work or posts you make?


Of course not - Phil is just being a rude bastard again. Ignore him - I do!



I ignored you and you could handle it. LOL Are you trolling again?










Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 3:23am
Please keep ignoring each otherStern Smile.

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https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM


Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 3:30am
I couldn't agree more.


Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 6:35am

Yes I will ignore everyone Smile

Except this maybe, which I find a valid idea, Metal-related might be quite a small sub but it could be a relevant thing to have..

Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

I agree that Nirvana as hard rock isn't exactly accurate for me, but I can't say that they shouldn't be here at all, for reasons pointed out above. To me Nirvana is the sort of act that would be a fit for a theoretical 'metal related' sub, which to me implies not metal (or hard rock) themselves, but too important to not be listed at all. Not sure if there has ever been thoughts of MMA having a metal related sub like PA has prog related (IMO it could potentially be a minefield if we did), but IMO that's the best way for an act such as Nirvana to fit on a metal site. My pennies worth, anyway.


Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 6:54am
The prog-related sub-genre on PA has always caused a lot of trouble and grief. I´m not sure I like the idea of copying that model.

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Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 09 Sep 2011 at 7:33am

I'm sure you can do better Tongue


Posted By: Tupan
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2011 at 9:14pm
Mostly of the Queen albums labeled as Non-metal shoud be moved to Hard Rock.

Examples: The Works, Innuendo, Made in Heaven.


Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2011 at 5:42am
I agree on "Innuendo", but I am not sure about "The Works" and I haven't heard "Made In Heaven".

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Posted By: Tupan
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2011 at 7:38am
From The Works:




Posted By: zdunne
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2011 at 5:30pm
Quote
Mostly of the Queen albums labeled as Non-metal shoud be moved to Hard Rock.

Examples: The Works, Innuendo, Made in Heaven.


It could be argued that the three Aerosmith albums under Non Metal fit this argument as well though others may disagree with me on that (well at least Nine Lives and Honkin on Bobo, Just Push Play is a bad pop album in my opinion with only a few good tracks foreshadowing Tyler's descent into Idolitis).

Anyway, as far as the broad definition of the Hard Rock category, I understand that further expansion might erode the site at this point as it is a metal site though one could argue that a Metal-Related Punk category could exist for bands like the Misfits, Bad Brains, Pennywise (who I always thought had some thrash characteristics), Offspring (early), the Ramones (pioneers who influenced both punk and metal) and others for bands that are decidedly Punk (not crossover thrash or alt metal) but have enough appeal to Metal fans to warrant being on a Metal site but I feel doing so would hurt the site not help as such suggestions would get heat from the Metal community even for the Hard Rock category (as some debates are causing now).  Even our sister site Jazz Music Archives has seen some debates under what to include because they feel they need establish credibility as a jazz site and not just as a subsite of a prog site.


Posted By: Tupan
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2011 at 5:33pm
^But I 'll not changemy opinions about Queen. They are THE hard rock band.


Posted By: Balthamel
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 8:05am
a silly question from me ( i don't know where to adress this but anyhow), but how is Innuendo by Queen not able to rate or not a metal/hard rock album when the title track is one of the heavyest songs they have,...

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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2011 at 3:27pm
Probably because an album needs to be predominantly metal (or hard rock) to be labeled as such.


Posted By: Balthamel
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2011 at 10:10am
ok Thumbs Up im fine with that. just wonderd

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