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Rating/review weights changed

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URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12936
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Topic: Rating/review weights changed
Posted By: adg211288
Subject: Rating/review weights changed
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 5:51am
An adjustment has been made to MMA's weight on ratings and reviews. These were originally changed to try to combat down raters but have now been set to more realistic values:

Rating only: 1, regardless of who left it.
Member review: 5
Staff (collab/metal reviewer/admin) review: 10

This was changed as we were concerned that the large weighting rates, especially for staff rating only submissions. Now every non-review rating is on a level playing field. 

On this note, MMA always needs ratings. If you've heard it, rate it! You can change your rating at any time, so don't worrying about changing opinions.


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Replies:
Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 5:59am
Excellent! The collab rating only weight was always completely overkill.

This will be an great excuse to post new versions of my sub-genre polls. I can see the pages have changed quite a bit already.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 6:02am
Hold off a few hours Ashley just to make sure everything is re-synced. Max has warned me that it may take an hour or two for everything to be updated. Also maybe leave the new sub-genres off for now as we're still moving and adding to them. 

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Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 6:07am
Okay, I'll start thinking about them at the weekend. I'm off out shortly anyway.


Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 6:54pm
Can't say I'm too fond of this, not because of collab ratings not holding as much weight, but because introducing a new system like this suddenly makes all the top albums look like it has a prog bias again. Doesn't really look too good, it was a lot more varied before.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 7:02pm
I kinda like this. When did the new subs get added? I just noticed them. Must have been fairly recent.

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 2:11am
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Can't say I'm too fond of this, not because of collab ratings not holding as much weight, but because introducing a new system like this suddenly makes all the top albums look like it has a prog bias again. Doesn't really look too good, it was a lot more varied before.

This is just not true. There are literally two progressive metal tagged albums in the top 25, plus two Rush (progressive hard rock) albums and one Death (technical/progressive death metal) album, if you want to count those as well. 

The earliest wayback machine page I can get to load is from August last year. There were three albums that could be considered progressive then. It's not such a major difference to get upset about.

This is how the ratings should always have been. Collabs never should have had a 20x bonus for a rating only. It allowed one collab to completely dictate an album's average score and chart position if it was only regular members otherwise rating it. Everything you are seeing is because of that unfair bonus being nullified. We want more people rating things here and it was a major discouragement to normal members that their ratings basically counted for nothing if just one collab had rated the same release. 


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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 6:57am
Agreed, this is much fairer.


Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Can't say I'm too fond of this, not because of collab ratings not holding as much weight, but because introducing a new system like this suddenly makes all the top albums look like it has a prog bias again. Doesn't really look too good, it was a lot more varied before.


I'm not sure there is a visible Prog bias but does it really matter if there is? I seem to be reading an implication here that even if there is one it's something that should be censored?


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 1:39pm
These are the truer charts. The other ones were the bias ones. Collab bias that is. Everything is fair now.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Can't say I'm too fond of this, not because of collab ratings not holding as much weight, but because introducing a new system like this suddenly makes all the top albums look like it has a prog bias again. Doesn't really look too good, it was a lot more varied before.

This is just not true. There are literally two progressive metal tagged albums in the top 25, plus two Rush (progressive hard rock) albums and one Death (technical/progressive death metal) album, if you want to count those as well. 

The earliest wayback machine page I can get to load is from August last year. There were three albums that could be considered progressive then. It's not such a major difference to get upset about.

This is how the ratings should always have been. Collabs never should have had a 20x bonus for a rating only. It allowed one collab to completely dictate an album's average score and chart position if it was only regular members otherwise rating it. Everything you are seeing is because of that unfair bonus being nullified. We want more people rating things here and it was a major discouragement to normal members that their ratings basically counted for nothing if just one collab had rated the same release. 


Exactly. I was surprised how badly one negative review I did (can't even remember the band or the album) shot something out of the top 5 down to about 15. Might have been Rust in Peace? Or Opeth? Can't remember.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Can't say I'm too fond of this, not because of collab ratings not holding as much weight, but because introducing a new system like this suddenly makes all the top albums look like it has a prog bias again. Doesn't really look too good, it was a lot more varied before.


Hardly. It could have been a lot worse. The top 5 was looking very mainstream before.


Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Can't say I'm too fond of this, not because of collab ratings not holding as much weight, but because introducing a new system like this suddenly makes all the top albums look like it has a prog bias again. Doesn't really look too good, it was a lot more varied before.

This is how the ratings should always have been. Collabs never should have had a 20x bonus for a rating only. It allowed one collab to completely dictate an album's average score and chart position if it was only regular members otherwise rating it. Everything you are seeing is because of that unfair bonus being nullified. We want more people rating things here and it was a major discouragement to normal members that their ratings basically counted for nothing if just one collab had rated the same release. 

I completely agree, the original collab rating weight was complete overkill and this is how it should have always been, but that's not my point.

Since reviews have the highest weight (Which they should, don't get me wrong, ratings are irrelevant in the long run), it makes the albums with more reviews become the ones that are highest. And due to the first four years or so of the site being mostly run by prog fans, the majority of reviews are of prog related albums. 

Though I really didn't think about how this makes normal member ratings/reviews have a lot more pull, so hopefully this gets more people to come on and rate and review.

Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:


I'm not sure there is a visible Prog bias but does it really matter if there is? I seem to be reading an implication here that even if there is one it's something that should be censored?

I don't think anything should be censored. I apologize for even bringing anything up, I don't know what I was trying to get at anymore.


Posted By: DippoMagoo
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 4:34pm
I've never been one to care about charts at all (except genre charts) but the current top 25 looks pretty well balanced to me. And yeah, the new system seems fair enough to me, though again, I generally don't pay much attention to that kind of thing anyway.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Since reviews have the highest weight (Which they should, don't get me wrong, ratings are irrelevant in the long run), it makes the albums with more reviews become the ones that are highest. And due to the first four years or so of the site being mostly run by prog fans, the majority of reviews are of prog related albums. 

Yes but this should be encouragement for more reviews to be written as well, at least by collabs. There's no incentive to write if you get the same bonus for just a rating only. 


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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Since reviews have the highest weight (Which they should, don't get me wrong, ratings are irrelevant in the long run), it makes the albums with more reviews become the ones that are highest. And due to the first four years or so of the site being mostly run by prog fans, the majority of reviews are of prog related albums. 

Yes but this should be encouragement for more reviews to be written as well, at least by collabs. There's no incentive to write if you get the same bonus for just a rating only. 

Yes, and I really should have organized my thoughts better before posting anything. I think the update of the weight is great, it's just due to not as many reviews of older albums being written in the past few years, the charts get a bit skewed in favor of the reviews written closer to the first few years of the site or newer releases.

I think this would be a great time to have some "classic edition" reviewers challenges.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:


 I apologize for even bringing anything up, I don't know what I was trying to get at anymore.


You been taking the stoner part of stoner metal too seriously?Wink

For me when I lose track I can blame old age.Smile


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:


I think this would be a great time to have some "classic edition" reviewers challenges.


I'm definitely up for that.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 6:48am
I don't mind setting a challenge up. Exactly what kind were you thinking though? Same album for everyone? Partners swapping albums? Random different selection from a shortlist? I'd guess swapping albums would be easiest since finding a classic that not one of the participants has reviewed would be a task and a half and random selection of different albums could prove to have the same issue. 

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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 7:13am
Or everyone just pick a classic album they haven't reviewed yet and let loose. Of course, you would have to define exactly what constitutes "classic." I would guess its an album that appears in the top 100 but then again there are many classics that aren't popular but well-revered.

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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 4:31pm
By classic I just mean any old albums. Like maybe any albums before 1995 or something like that?

I think any of the suggested methods would work, because there's an endless amount of old albums that haven't been reviewed or barely reviewed. Even some well-known classics like Exciter's Heavy Metal Maniacs don't have any reviews.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 10:36am
I kinda like your polls on individual years. Maybe we could do a challenge by year so that everyone can pick an album from say, 1985 and compare notes so that not everyone reviews Metallica or something.

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 12:17pm
It's not so much of a challenge if everyone picks their own album - we can do that anytime.

I have a proposition for this reviewer's challenge. How about a special one that goes decade by decade? Everyone gets picked a 70's album, an 80's album and a 90's album that they haven't heard and reviews all three? I'd say reviewing pairs would be the best way to do it. 


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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 1:02pm
I'd be up for that, would we have to choose albums that our partner hasn't even heard? I think it might be better to just have the limit at not reviewed.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 1:05pm
Decades are a little broad, dontcha think? Maybe a little more fine tuned. Maybe a genre from a decade like 80s doom metal or 90s power metal or something a little more limiting. Maybe for the 70s a decade is fine but when you get to the 2000s, that's like a billion albums or so.

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 1:05pm
We can do that, though I don't mind albums being picked that other people have reviewed. 

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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

We can do that, though I don't mind albums being picked that other people have reviewed. 

Yeah, that's what I meant, just as long as the reviewing partner hasn't reviewed the album they've been picked obviously. Tongue


Posted By: DippoMagoo
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 4:24pm
I'd be interested in that, except I really don't know if I'd get through an album from the 70's, unless it's either prog rock, Judas Priest or Black Sabbath, or something (and yes, i do have plenty of unrated albums for both of those bands, and do plan to correct that eventually.) 80's and 90's would be perfectly fine for me, though.


Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by DippoMagoo DippoMagoo wrote:

I'd be interested in that, except I really don't know if I'd get through an album from the 70's, unless it's either prog rock, Judas Priest or Black Sabbath, or something (and yes, i do have plenty of unrated albums for both of those bands, and do plan to correct that eventually.) 80's and 90's would be perfectly fine for me, though.

Do you generally not like 70's music?


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by DippoMagoo DippoMagoo wrote:

I'd be interested in that, except I really don't know if I'd get through an album from the 70's, unless it's either prog rock, Judas Priest or Black Sabbath, or something (and yes, i do have plenty of unrated albums for both of those bands, and do plan to correct that eventually.) 80's and 90's would be perfectly fine for me, though.

Do you generally not like 70's music?


As someone who remembers the 70s, I can quite honestly say by and large NO!LOL I remember the abominations that was disco, and shit like Racy and Rod Stewart and Disco Duck...Ouch

The thing with doing a "classics" challenge is that if you go too far back, it really limits the range of genres available. The likes of thrash, death, black metal, grindcore, power metal etc. really only developed in the 80s, and some of those didn't really shine until the 90s. I'm not against it, I just think it needs to be selected carefully.


Posted By: DippoMagoo
Date Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 11:59pm
Yeah, that's more what I meant. Almost every kind of metal I like didn't even exist back in the 70's, so I'd mostly be limited to either the bands I mentioned, prog rock and maybe a bit of hard rock. I really can't think of much else I'd like from that period.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 1:20am
You know I was thinking instead I could research which highly regarded albums from all years/genres have no/few reviews and maybe doing a random selection of maybe three for everyone like we did on the 2017 catch-up challenge. You remember, the one where you were able to swap your selection with those still in the pile if you needed to. I think that may work best.

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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 1:34am
Personally I like the one for each decade and having pairs better, but I wouldn't be against doing it that way.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 5:02am
I think a random selection may work better. I've started listing possible albums. We can do either one large random list or sort it by genre so everything gets something to their preference. 

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 5:13am
Though we could still go by decade, or even by sub-genre. Let me see how many valid albums I can find first. Feel free to give me suggestions as well though. The criteria I'm using is 0 or 1 reviews and on either Spotify or Bandcamp.

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 7:58am
Let's continue this in this collab zone thread:

http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12942&PID=177138&#177138


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