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Debate: Satori by Flower Travellin' Band is metal

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Topic: Debate: Satori by Flower Travellin' Band is metal
Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Subject: Debate: Satori by Flower Travellin' Band is metal
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 5:39am
Just checked this album out on a recommendation. It was Japanese group Flower Travellin' Band's second album (first of original material). It came out in 1971 and for the time period I was quite surprised by how heavy it was, and to me seems to have characteristics of both heavy metal and doom metal. What do you think? We have it in hard rock here (agreed by RYM's heavy psych tag) but to me this band sounds like something more on the level with bands like Black Sabbath (who they covered on their first album), Budgie and Sir Lord Baltimore.


http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/album/flower-travellin-band/satori





Replies:
Posted By: voila_la_scorie
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 6:34am
The first track is excellent early doom metal and very obviously inspired by Black Sabbath. It's actually quite unusual to find a song that intense and dark in those years. I don't recall tracks 2-4 so well but track 5 also has some great heavy stuff if I recall correctly. I bought this album two, maybe three years ago. I believe I wrote a review for it. I think it's proto-metal.

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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 9:43am
I had never heard of this band before, but I checked it out, and I would agree with you. While there's a lot of hard rock in the 70's that crosses into metal territory, this does sound like some serious Black Sabbath worship. Why am I not surprised that RYM doesn't know what they're talking about and doesn't have heavy metal or doom metal as at least secondary. Wink

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If I say fuck two more times that's forty-six fucks in this fucked up rhyme


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 11:42am
I'd need to have a full listen before acting but a quick sample suggests this needs moving on MMA. Actually, this seems like it may actually be more metal than Sir Lord Baltimore's debut, if memory serves.

This is their version of Black Sabbath from their previous album:



Posted By: Sisslith
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 12:56pm
Just streamed the whole album. For me, it's more heavy metal with doom metal elements than hard rock (though it's also there)...  Many parts of the album do sound like early Black Sabbath. Maybe it should be tagged as traditional heavy metal, or at least proto-metal.

I can't say whether the heavy psych tag on RYM is appropriate since I haven't listened to many albums of the genre...


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Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Without music, life would be a mistake.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 1:59pm
I can reasonably see this as heavy psych but I do have to agree. This is well in excess of the minimum metal requirements of MMA. 

Loved the album too. 


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Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2017 at 8:57am
So I'm not thinking crazy then. Good to know. ;)


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2017 at 11:44am
No, you're not thinking crazy. In fact unless someone can come up with a good reason not to I think I'm going to move this release into Heavy Metal.


Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 2:13pm
So can the album be moved to heavy metal then? I don't see anyone disagreeing.

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If I say fuck two more times that's forty-six fucks in this fucked up rhyme


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 2:46pm
I'd really like to hear at least a couple more opinions first. To my ears it's pretty obviously a metal album, especially for an early 70's release, but this topic is still only a couple of days old at the moment, and there are still quite a few active or semi-active collabs who haven't posted here. They deserve a bit of time to do so, if they're going to. This isn't actually a case where the band/album is widely accepted into the early metal canon.


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 7:21pm
I own this album. I consider it heavy psych that is heavier than usual. I would probably vote for proto-metal myself since it's not really a metal album in the traditional sense

70s hard rock is most notably characterized by a bluesy shuffle with the decibalage cranked up. Satori is more of a psychedelic experience that happens to have heaviness. Even RYM lists this exclusively as heavy psych, however it doesn't really matter to me where it ultimately ends up


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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 7:25pm
One question i have always had is why a band like this would be considered metal when it uses slow distorted riffs but a much more energetic band like Van Halen which has monster riffing and blitzkrieg guitar solos is only considered hard rock. Seems illogical

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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

One question i have always had is why a band like this would be considered metal when it uses slow distorted riffs but a much more energetic band like Van Halen which has monster riffing and blitzkrieg guitar solos is only considered hard rock. Seems illogical

I consider some of Van Halen's stuff heavy metal, but that's besides the point. You can be as energetic as possible and have riffs and guitar solos, and that doesn't always make something metal. Metal is about technique and sound as much as it is heaviness. Think about it this way, what other genre of music uses slow, brooding, heavy, and distorted riffing all in one? The riffs on Satori are right out of the 70's Black Sabbath playbook. Would you call Black Sabbath heavy psych or proto-metal rather than Heavy Metal?


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If I say fuck two more times that's forty-six fucks in this fucked up rhyme


Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 1:36am
Originally posted by siLLy
 puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Even RYM lists this exclusively as heavy psych


Yes but its not as if metal tags are being unanimously voted down on it either. It might be contested but there's still a strong support for this being a metal album there. Most of the comments (often a better source of the correct genre on such heavily debated albums) support heavy metal over heavy psych.

Revolution666 hit the nail on the head regarding this vote:

Originally posted by Revolution666 Revolution666 wrote:

Top 10 Most Fucked Genre Pages on RYM



Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 1:40am
I'm also pretty sure that under site rules this can't be placed in Proto Metal if it's a fully fledged heavy psych album.


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 6:18am
Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

Revolution666 hit the nail on the head regarding this vote:

Originally posted by Revolution666 Revolution666 wrote:

Top 10 Most Fucked Genre Pages on RYM



There are more than ten pages deserving to be in such a top 10 that's for sure.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 10:34am
Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

I'm also pretty sure that under site rules this can't be placed in Proto Metal if it's a fully fledged heavy psych album.

Correct, but this wasn't always the policy so there's probably a fair bit of hard rock still in proto that shouldn't be. 


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Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 11:04am
Satori actually was in Proto until very recently but was moved when I went through the F entries in Hard Rock.


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 11:27am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

it's not really a metal album in the traditional sense


I'd argue that a traditional sense for metal didn't exist in 1971.

70's heavy metal is actually a very small pool of artists unless you want to count groups like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple who, while they may have been included in the fledgling heavy metal genre/scene then, are now widely considered 'just' hard rock bands.

Until the mid to late 70's there are actually very few groups that have a Heavy Metal tag either on RYM or here on MMA itself. From RYM's charts:

1970:

Black Sabbath - Paranoid
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Sir Lord Baltimore - Kingdom Come

1971:

Black Sabbath - Master of Reality
Budgie - Budgie
Bang - Bang

1972:

Black Sabbath - Vol 4
Budgie - Squawk

1974:

Budgie - In For the Kill

1975:

Black Sabbath - Sabotage

That's literally just four bands and ten albums and all of them considered part hard rock. That's nowhere near enough to consider the heavy metal sound standardised.

'76 brings Judas Priest and Rainbow into the picture and this is our cut off year for Proto-Metal, so between them Rising and Sad Wings of Destiny could be seen as the first truly defining heavy metal albums, especially Sad Wings, which is the earliest heavy metal tagged album on RYM that doesn't have hard rock as a co-Primary.

This paves way for further bands in '77 such as Riot, Motörhead and Quartz, whose self-titled is the earliest release typically included as part of the NWoBHM. Personally I can't help but wonder if that's a little too early, but that's another debate.

Bearing this in mind, I don't think Satori should be judged by standards that only came to be years after its release. It needs to be judged as a contemporary of Black Sabbath, Budgie, Sir Lord Baltimore and Bang.

It may not be in line with the popular view, but I do think this album warrants Flower Travellin' Band being considered a fifth true early heavy metal act on MMA.


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 11:37am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

One question i have always had is why a band like this would be considered metal when it uses slow distorted riffs but a much more energetic band like Van Halen which has monster riffing and blitzkrieg guitar solos is only considered hard rock. Seems illogical


I wouldn't say that Van Halen is considered only hard rock. Many of their albums have heavy metal recognised as a secondary on RYM. Think of them as a hard rock and heavy metal band, who lean more heavily on the hard rock side.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Would you call Black Sabbath heavy psych or proto-metal rather than Heavy Metal?

Black Sabbath actually were in Proto-Metal here for a long time, up until the cut off year. It was only when Proto-Metal got moved under Metal Related Genres that the then team allowed those albums to be moved to trad. 


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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by 666sharon666 666sharon666 wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

it's not really a metal album in the traditional sense


I'd argue that a traditional sense for metal didn't exist in 1971.

70's heavy metal is actually a very small pool of artists unless you want to count groups like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple who, while they may have been included in the fledgling heavy metal genre/scene then, are now widely considered 'just' hard rock bands.

Until the mid to late 70's there are actually very few groups that have a Heavy Metal tag either on RYM or here on MMA itself. From RYM's charts:

1970:

Black Sabbath - Paranoid
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
Sir Lord Baltimore - Kingdom Come

1971:

Black Sabbath - Master of Reality
Budgie - Budgie
Bang - Bang

1972:

Black Sabbath - Vol 4
Budgie - Squawk

1974:

Budgie - In For the Kill

1975:

Black Sabbath - Sabotage

That's literally just four bands and ten albums and all of them considered part hard rock. That's nowhere near enough to consider the heavy metal sound standardised.

'76 brings Judas Priest and Rainbow into the picture and this is our cut off year for Proto-Metal, so between them Rising and Sad Wings of Destiny could be seen as the first truly defining heavy metal albums, especially Sad Wings, which is the earliest heavy metal tagged album on RYM that doesn't have hard rock as a co-Primary.

This paves way for further bands in '77 such as Riot, Motörhead and Quartz, whose self-titled is the earliest release typically included as part of the NWoBHM. Personally I can't help but wonder if that's a little too early, but that's another debate.

Bearing this in mind, I don't think Satori should be judged by standards that only came to be years after its release. It needs to be judged as a contemporary of Black Sabbath, Budgie, Sir Lord Baltimore and Bang.

It may not be in line with the popular view, but I do think this album warrants Flower Travellin' Band being considered a fifth true early heavy metal act on MMA.


Well, i agree with most of what you have said but i think your first comment about 1971 having no true sense of traditional metal means that it can't be put into the same category as traditional metal that was developed later. ALthough i would classify Satori as heavy psych (a sub we will hopefull have someday) i just don't see them as "metal." I liked the previous method of categorizing all of the early 70s bands as proto-metal


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Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 3:14pm
That's not actually what I meant. Heavy Metal existed in an early form since 1970 and Black Sabbath's debut. But it takes a bit of time before any genre evolves to have a standardised sound. Take later metal genres like black metal for instance: You have to of course throw out most of the so called first wave because a lot of those bands had nothing to do with the actual genre of black metal, but those that did like Bathory were much more based in thrash metal than the standardised sound as popularised by the early Norwegian scene is. Mayhem themselves were much the same.

That doesn't mean those early releases don't deserve to be counted as the new fledgling genre by any means. It just means they still have pretty strong aspects of other styles, in the case of early heavy metal mainly meaning hard rock and heavy psych but also blues rock, which Black Sabbath certainly had aspects of. It really wasn't until Sad Wings of Destiny that any metal band really began to shake the hard rock roots off (and even then Judas Priest had more hard rock leaning albums after that point). For the black metal example, thrash metal files the role that hard rock does for heavy metal. For another example speed metal is to (Euro) power metal what hard rock is to early heavy metal. It's not simply coincidence that many of those early German power metal bands played speed metal on their earliest releases.

Back to topic: No one here is denying that Satori is heavy psych, just making a case that it's heavy psych and heavy metal.


Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 3:44pm
If you think about it, psychedelic rock was one of heavy metal's biggest influences, so it makes sense that most early metal would also be psychedelic in parts.

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If I say fuck two more times that's forty-six fucks in this fucked up rhyme


Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 4:37pm
^ agreed, therefore we REALLY need a heavy psych to include those few early bands that were still in that world like Blue Cheer and Flower Travelin Band. 

As far as Van Halen goes, i think some of their albums should be METAL and not hard rock on here but i'm not too overly concerned about it actually. If Satori turns out to be hard rock or trad metal, whatever. They're still heavy psych to me :)


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Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 1:28am
I'm still not convinced that Satori isn't actually the first traditional doom metal album. The slow playing style and guitar techniques say doom more than heavy metal to me.


Posted By: Sisslith
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 10:30am
Sooo traditional heavy metal until we have a heavy psych tag?


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Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Without music, life would be a mistake.


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 1:02am
Originally posted by Sisslith Sisslith wrote:

Sooo traditional heavy metal until we have a heavy psych tag?


That would defeat the purpose; if it goes to heavy metal it'll stay in heavy metal regardless of whether or not heavy psych gets added, since heavy psych will be a child sub of hard rock, which is where the album is now.

I'm still hoping the other admins will offer some input here, but regardless this doesn't have to be and shouldn't be a rushed decision.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 1:06am
Sounds metal enough to me.


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 2:28pm
A long time in coming, but this was moved to Heavy Metal on MMA today.


Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 2:31pm
^Great, it's about time! Clap


Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 18 Feb 2018 at 2:51pm
Yay! Hug



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