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The Age Old Debate: Black Metal vs Death Metal

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Topic: The Age Old Debate: Black Metal vs Death Metal
Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Subject: The Age Old Debate: Black Metal vs Death Metal
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 3:11pm
Which do you like more?



Replies:
Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 3:32pm
While I do love some black metal bands (Myrkur, Melechech, and Satyricon are all among my favorite bands), I much prefer death metal. While I have to be in the mood to really enjoy black metal, I can enjoy my favorite death metal bands at pretty much any time.

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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

While I do love some black metal bands (Myrkur, Melechech, and Satyricon are all among my favorite bands), I much prefer death metal. While I have to be in the mood to really enjoy black metal, I can enjoy my favorite death metal bands at pretty much any time.
Pretty much how I feel too. I guess I just prefer riff driven music more than atmosphere driven ditto.

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 3:55pm
While I have a high regard for death metal, I have to vote for black metal. While I do tend to go through phases where the genre doesn't interest me so much, I do that with death metal too. The clincher was that I'm usually more like to find enjoyment even from the more standard black metal album than I am from the more standard death metal album. 

Honestly I tend to think of black metal as the more innovative of the two as well especially in regard to how far artists push the sound and include influences from other genres, including ones that later took root in death metal (symphonic black metal was firmly established long before the current breed of symphonic death metal bands for example). 


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Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 11:47pm
Death metal. I really hate the pose that comes with black metal- misanthropy, looking grim, corpse paint, crappy production (blowfly buzzing guitars, screeched vocals) or overdone symphonic/atmospheric bollocks, the way some bands are anti-Christian, but pro-Odin/Pagan/something else (it's all religion!), the superior attitude of some fans (just to be clear, I don't get that from anyone here!).

All that said, I do like some black metal, but it's mainly the big names which aren't Darkthrone (the worst offenders!) and Dimmu Borgir. And I got the Abbath album recently, which kicked ass! The album cover looked bloody dumb though.Thumbs Down

I suppose that's a very negative way of looking at things. The positives for death metal? First heard it in 1989 (Death playing "Left To Die") and loved it instantly. It's just one of those love-at-first-sight/listen things. There are a few big name bands I don't much like (Suffocation, Six Feet Under, most of the melodic bands, deathcore like Whitechapel), but I'll take it over black metal most days.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Death metal. I really hate the pose that comes with black metal- misanthropy, looking grim, corpse paint, crappy production (blowfly buzzing guitars, screeched vocals) or overdone symphonic/atmospheric bollocks, the way some bands are anti-Christian, but pro-Odin/Pagan/something else (it's all religion!), the superior attitude of some fans (just to be clear, I don't get that from anyone here!).

All that said, I do like some black metal, but it's mainly the big names which aren't Darkthrone (the worst offenders!) and Dimmu Borgir. And I got the Abbath album recently, which kicked ass! The album cover looked bloody dumb though.Thumbs Down

It's a fair point but I do think that you are generalising somewhat. Black metal as a whole has mostly moved on from all that. Sure you do get bands that are just out there trying to be as true or kvlt as they can (some of which I do think are good but most don't interest me - I have one Darkthrone album which has always been enough), but a lot of newer black metal bands look like fairly ordinary people and are usually the one's pushing the genre forward and making the most interesting albums. 

This is what the band who made my highest rated black metal album on my 2015 looks like for example:




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Posted By: LittleBig
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 12:44am
well, neither, at least not in their "pure" form if I may say so, blend them with something else and I will give that a listen. Big smile


Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 12:47am
Black metal.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 1:04am
Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Death metal. I really hate the pose that comes with black metal- misanthropy, looking grim, corpse paint, crappy production (blowfly buzzing guitars, screeched vocals) or overdone symphonic/atmospheric bollocks, the way some bands are anti-Christian, but pro-Odin/Pagan/something else (it's all religion!), the superior attitude of some fans (just to be clear, I don't get that from anyone here!).

All that said, I do like some black metal, but it's mainly the big names which aren't Darkthrone (the worst offenders!) and Dimmu Borgir. And I got the Abbath album recently, which kicked ass! The album cover looked bloody dumb though.Thumbs Down

It's a fair point but I do think that you are generalising somewhat. Black metal as a whole has mostly moved on from all that. Sure you do get bands that are just out there trying to be as true or kvlt as they can (some of which I do think are good but most don't interest me - I have one Darkthrone album which has always been enough), but a lot of newer black metal bands look like fairly ordinary people and are usually the one's pushing the genre forward and making the most interesting albums. 

This is what the band who made my highest rated black metal album on my 2015 looks like for example:




Yes, I'll freely admit to sweeping generalisations!Big smile I suppose I haven't really moved on my view of black metal since the late 90s. Too many things annoyed me back then so I haven't much explored black metal since then.


Posted By: Vic
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 7:02am
Death metal. 

Black metal is one of the genres I cannot stand. The vocals is one thing (ruin everything for me) and the second is the autistic, shitty songwriting. I am talking about the early 90s Norwegian scene and what followed obviously, not the 80s black metal (the satanic bands).

Regarding vocals, it's the deal breaker. I have no idea what the appeal is. I like extreme vocals as much as the next man (give me vincent, Tardy, Hoffman, Schuldiner, Mille, Schmier etc) but I want passion and aggression, heaviness that means business. When the vocals are something else, like "desperate" or "howling" or some frozen emotion or some shit, it just sounds like SHIT to my ears. And it usually ruins any good music that might be there. 

As far as autistic, shitty songwriting goes, I mean repetitious, tragically bad recorded "riffs" with "atmosphere" (what we used to call a shitty demo turned out to be grim and evil in the 90s, fancy that) with the aforementioned shitty vocals on top. I find this kind of music pure garbage and for the life of me I never managed to get in the proper mood and understand what the horde of black metal fans actually find in it. 

There are VERY few exceptions (usually songs) but nothing that I think is perfect as it is.

So, yeah, death metal! :P


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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 7:52am
I like every style of metal and like both black and death but my favorites include fusion aspects like Behemoth and their blackened death approach

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Posted By: Wyvern_13
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 8:33am
I prefer Death Metal out of the two, partly I suppose because of how easily it blends with other genres to form a different beast (Death/Doom, Death/Black, Melodic Death, Death/Sludge, there's so many different sounds to choose from) whereas any added ingredients in Black Metal tend to change the atmosphere rather then the overall tone of the music (although there are of course exceptions). Or at least thats how I experience it.

I do like Black Metal though but as with most things whether I want to listen to it or not depends an awful lot on my mood at the time.


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Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2016 at 2:09pm
Some interesting comments so far, particularly from black metal's detractors. Honestly it sounds like a couple of you there are judging the entire genre based on the lo-fi necro types. That's your prerogative I guess, but it annoys the shit out of me. I could just as easily say I fucking hate death metal because of deathcore and then the shoe would be on the other foot. I don't hate death metal at all for the record, just making a point. I imagine you guys would be just as pissed at the notion of all death metal being written off because of deathcore.

Here's another point: I made a simple poll. I didn't open an arena for a flame war.


Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 12:14am
Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

Some interesting comments so far, particularly from black metal's detractors. Honestly it sounds like a couple of you there are judging the entire genre based on the lo-fi necro types. That's your prerogative I guess, but it annoys the shit out of me. I could just as easily say I fucking hate death metal because of deathcore and then the shoe would be on the other foot. I don't hate death metal at all for the record, just making a point. I imagine you guys would be just as pissed at the notion of all death metal being written off because of deathcore.

Here's another point: I made a simple poll. I didn't open an arena for a flame war.


Black metal is a Marmite genre (if you don't know what Marmite is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" rel="nofollow - as in you either love it or hate it. It's harder to sit on the fence and have no opinion. I'm quite willing to check out new bands if anyone has suggestions.

And this isn't really a flame war. This is very civilized compared to other places I post.Wink


Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 12:29am
I like marmite.

Also my last post was made more in the hope of preventing a flame war rather than stopping one already in progress.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 1:00am
Black metal examples that I at least feel show off the genre's diversity. Not promising that you'll like any of them.

Winterhorde: Prog black metal. This is just one song. The full album needs to be experienced for the full effect.



Fen: Atmospheric black metal. Fen are one of the ABM groups that don't lack for aggression in their music. 



Carach Angren: symphonic black metal. Corpse-painted which you'll have to take with a grain of salt, but some of the genre's most intelligible vocals. 



Hail Spirit Noir: Psych black metal, one of the more unique bands I've found in the last few years.



Vattnet Viskar: sludge influenced black metal. The vocals on this album often sound more like those used in early Mastodon.



Myrkur: black metal with primarily clean vocals.



Immortal: thrashy black metal (later stuff only).



Mesarthim: spacey, ambient, electronic kind of black metal.



Saille: melodic/symphonic black metal.




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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 1:00am
Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

Some interesting comments so far, particularly from black metal's detractors. Honestly it sounds like a couple of you there are judging the entire genre based on the lo-fi necro types. That's your prerogative I guess, but it annoys the shit out of me. I could just as easily say I fucking hate death metal because of deathcore and then the shoe would be on the other foot. I don't hate death metal at all for the record, just making a point. I imagine you guys would be just as pissed at the notion of all death metal being written off because of deathcore.

Here's another point: I made a simple poll. I didn't open an arena for a flame war.


Black metal is a Marmite genre (if you don't know what Marmite is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" rel="nofollow - as in you either love it or hate it. It's harder to sit on the fence and have no opinion. I'm quite willing to check out new bands if anyone has suggestions.

And this isn't really a flame war. This is very civilized compared to other places I post.Wink

You may enjoy Melechesh, they have some thrash and middle-eastern stylings and are very riff-driven. Here's one of my favorites, it's an instrumental but that riff is so powerful:

 

And another favorite of mine:



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Posted By: Vim Fuego
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 1:13am
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

Some interesting comments so far, particularly from black metal's detractors. Honestly it sounds like a couple of you there are judging the entire genre based on the lo-fi necro types. That's your prerogative I guess, but it annoys the shit out of me. I could just as easily say I fucking hate death metal because of deathcore and then the shoe would be on the other foot. I don't hate death metal at all for the record, just making a point. I imagine you guys would be just as pissed at the notion of all death metal being written off because of deathcore.

Here's another point: I made a simple poll. I didn't open an arena for a flame war.


Black metal is a Marmite genre (if you don't know what Marmite is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite" rel="nofollow - as in you either love it or hate it. It's harder to sit on the fence and have no opinion. I'm quite willing to check out new bands if anyone has suggestions.

And this isn't really a flame war. This is very civilized compared to other places I post.Wink

You may enjoy Melechesh, they have some thrash and middle-eastern stylings and are very riff-driven. Here's one of my favorites, it's an instrumental but that riff is so powerful:

 

And another favorite of mine:



I actually have a Melechesh album, and I think it's excellent. I hadn't realised they were classed as black metal. And thanks for the other suggestions. I know Immortal well enough, and like them (also quite like the Abbath album), but the others are all foreign to me. Have heard good things about Myrkur.


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 1:22am
Melechesh are usually classed as melodic black metal. Melodic black is noted for its stronger production values than other forms of black metal. 

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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 6:36am
I prefer glam metal and nu metal, the only true types of metal!

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Posted By: Unitron
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

I prefer glam metal and nu metal, the only true types of metal!

Glad someone else is trve, Bon Jovi and Limp Bizkit will always be my favorite metal bands!


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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

I prefer glam metal and nu metal, the only true types of metal!

Glad someone else is trve, Bon Jovi and Limp Bizkit will always be my favorite metal bands!

Bon Jovi so sucks! Poison, Nelson and Warrant forever! You're right Limp Bizket is the best band EVER!


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Posted By: DippoMagoo
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 1:26pm
I voted for death metal, because the only kind of black metal I tend to like is symphonic black metal, where with death metal I like symphonic, prog, tech and mdm a great deal.


Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2016 at 4:16pm
I'm pretty selective when it comes to black metal and while i like bands like Melechesh, Enslaved (my favourite though not pure BM these days admittedly) and Carach Angren to name a few, there's far more death metal I like. 


Posted By: Vic
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 8:47am
Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

Some interesting comments so far, particularly from black metal's detractors. Honestly it sounds like a couple of you there are judging the entire genre based on the lo-fi necro types. That's your prerogative I guess, but it annoys the shit out of me. I could just as easily say I fucking hate death metal because of deathcore and then the shoe would be on the other foot. I don't hate death metal at all for the record, just making a point. I imagine you guys would be just as pissed at the notion of all death metal being written off because of deathcore.

Here's another point: I made a simple poll. I didn't open an arena for a flame war.

I have no interest in staring a flame war, just being honest about my opinion. I do see your point regarding black metal's variety, however my starting point is the second wave of the early 90s and all the major, significant bands, like Burzum, Mayhem, Emperor, Immortal, Darkthrone, etc. it's not like I picked a niche or sub-sub-genre of black metal and generalized from there, I actually base my opinion on the giants of the whole genre. Deathcore is like an offshoot of an offshoot. What I am talking about is the equivalent of Death, Morbid Angel, Obituary, Deicide and Entombed, you know? 

Just really not my cup of tea.


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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2016 at 1:43pm
Maybe I've been listening to the wrong bands but black metal as a genre still manages to surprise me where death metal doesn't. I mean I discovered a black metal/bluegrass crossover this week. Even when I do find something I haven't heard from death metal before it always seems to be something that black metal has already made a thing of. 

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Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 1:41am
^ i agree with black metal being more diverse and generally more adventurous. which band crosses with bluegrass? always interested in strange new hybrids

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 1:49am
Panopticon, though not on every album.




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Posted By: 666sharon666
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 10:35am
I love Panopticon's newest. No bluegrass there though. I'll have to listen to the older stuff soon.

I didn't elaborate on my choice before as I was in a hurry but I tend to prefer black metal for some the same reasons mentioned by others. I find that black metal serves as a great template to do almost anything with. I tend to prefer atmospheric/post black styles most of all, but also symphonic, melodic and traditional black metal bands (yes, I like Darkthrone, sue me). I don't think that all black metal is inherently atmospheric though. Some of it can be just as agressive as death metal.

I don't get the whole corpsepaint thing though, I must admit. I don't understand why newer bands do it even. I mean a lot of the early big names actually stopped using it, including Darkthrone, Emperor and even Mayhem. That's probably why I tend to associate a black metal band dropping the corpsepaint as them getting serious. Immortal are a favourite of mine, but they've always looked bloody silly!


Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2016 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

I prefer glam metal and nu metal, the only true types of metal!


Thank you for your insightful contribution. Angry



Posted By: Kingcrimsonprog
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 12:51pm
I prefer Death by a wiiiide margin. Most Black I've heard is utter rubbish and most big fans of Black I've met are unpleasant arrogant bullies. 

I really like Carprathian Forest, Melechesch and Zyklon, but those last two are more than just pure Black. 

I don't mind a bit of Emperor now and again, and Immortal have some music I dig when friends put it on, especially Sons Of Northern Darkness... but as a whole, I consider Black Metal the hands down worst subgenre of Metal. 

Glam, Nu, Core, all the things Black fans may make fun of are infinitely better than Black to me, now and always. 

I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about how arrogant, entitled and unrealistic Black Metal fans can be, sometimes its such a troll farm, where people just get off on being ridiculous and hostile. 

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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 1:06pm
I hear you about fans, but I think every genre has a few of those. I must admit though, I once received an online death threat from a black metal fan for writing a less than positive review of Mayhem's debut (an opinion I still stand by). 

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Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

I prefer Death by a wiiiide margin. Most Black I've heard is utter rubbish and most big fans of Black I've met are unpleasant arrogant bullies. 

I really like Carprathian Forest, Melechesch and Zyklon, but those last two are more than just pure Black. 

I don't mind a bit of Emperor now and again, and Immortal have some music I dig when friends put it on, especially Sons Of Northern Darkness... but as a whole, I consider Black Metal the hands down worst subgenre of Metal. 

Glam, Nu, Core, all the things Black fans may make fun of are infinitely better than Black to me, now and always. 

I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about how arrogant, entitled and unrealistic Black Metal fans can be, sometimes its such a troll farm, where people just get off on being ridiculous and hostile. 


Sounds like your bigger problem is with internet idiots. I have to wonder what black metal bands you've tried though. Consider looking through some of the examples adg posted in this thread. He covers a good range of BM types. You liking Carpathian Forest suggests you're not as totally closed to black metal as you may think. What I've heard from then is fairly standard as the genre goes.

Zyklon are more death metal though aren't they?

Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

I hear you about fans, but I think every genre has a few of those. I must admit though, I once received an online death threat from a black metal fan for writing a less than positive review of Mayhem's debut (an opinion I still stand by).


Unfortuntely I can well imagine this happening.


Posted By: TheHeavyMetalCat
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 2:51pm
By the way that Panopticon album posted here - bloody brilliant!


Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2016 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by TheHeavyMetalCat TheHeavyMetalCat wrote:

Originally posted by adg211288 adg211288 wrote:

I hear you about fans, but I think every genre has a few of those. I must admit though, I once received an online death threat from a black metal fan for writing a less than positive review of Mayhem's debut (an opinion I still stand by).


Unfortuntely I can well imagine this happening.

The guy was especially pissed that I had the gall to give a higher rating to Within Temptation. LOL

This was of course an absolute one off incident. I've never personally encountered anywhere near the same level of hostility from a black metal diehard before or since. Not that I've gone looking for it. There was a reason that I got off of the bigger sites that I frequented when I was first discovering metal and internet idiots, as Cat puts it, was exactly that reason. 

Nice to see that Panopticon album is getting some love around here as well. I've really been digging that album lately. Unfortunately it seems that physical copies are already hard to find. Ouch


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Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 7:13pm
Tough!!!! But I voted for black metal!

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Posted By: Alex
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2017 at 10:56am
Death metal. Sorry Nicole.



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