AC/DC and sub-genres issues (alt. metal+hard rock)

Why is my signature so big?? I've reduced the size almost to zero in photobucket and it's still gigantic... 

topofsm wrote: AC/DC are NOT metal. They are straightforward hard rock, and damn good at it too. I think maybe their song The Razor's Edge and maybe Thunderstruck are metal songs, but the rest of their catalogue has extremely little to no metal to it.

AC/DC is widely recognised to have made not only songs but albums of the heavy metal variety.  Of course AC/DC is not heavy metal per se, but they did make plenty of head-banging music (and music to bang to, kinda like Isaac Hayes only harder, but not as hard as Chef), and surely we don't want to limit this site to acts whose music can only be described as metal, or worse, limit it to bands that can only be considered metal (bands of robots perhaps that are made of metal and maybe never even play a note of music.  Is that what you want?  Let's forget about whether the music can be described as heavy metal and worry more about if the things themselves are made of a heavy metal such as lead -- a Lead Zeppelin would be very heavy indeed)  I wonder about even calling bands Metal, or Prog ,-- part of the movement, or making music of that ilk. but calling the band itself Metal... I wear leather and studs, have big hair, an Adamantine skeleton, and wear eye-shadow so I must be metal. Aluminium bands are okay, I guess?

Anyway, I know that I considered the album Back in Black to be heavy metal when it came out, but maybe you didn't.

Maybe we do need a state-of-the-art metal detector here that will only let those things themselves that are clearly metal through-and-through through.  No alloys allowed either, just pure heavy metal... dense and toxic.


Edited by Logan - 30 Mar 2010 at 8:01pm

m@x wrote: ... I personnaly would prefer deleting AC/DC than creating a sub-genre for them. We need to set the pace in the coming days for the future.  What the site becomes in the future depends from what it's done these days.  We have some "borderline" subgenre that we need to decide and go one with our decision Alternative Metal Hard-Rock Hardcore (Punk)  As a Metal Music Archive dedicated website and community. We need to set things straight here so we can take steps up , not stay on the same floor . Alternative metal is more a "metal" related name, than "metal" related music. But, everytime I think we should avoid them I remember the sub-genre Glam Metal that is basically the same. Sharing the name only. I am still confused.  Alternative metal exists. It could also be inscribed in Nu Metal. Some people would die if they saw Faith No More or System of a Down in Nu Metal though... But I would say we could treat both subgenres as one... Hard-Rock, again , for me , not good here.I think reality will make this difficult to happen. But in principle I agree. It will be difficult for some to conceive of metal with LZ or DP but with no ACDC. We have to be radical from the start. Either we will permit related bands in the future or we make this a STRICT METAL site Hardcore, well, I am a not knowing this kind of music well. But I tend to vote NO.100% agree. Though there are metal genres with a lot of hardcore in them, hardcore as a pure genre doesn't belong here. Same with punk.  Let's discuss....

Here's the controversial take on hard rock (unsurprisingly) from me:

"Hard rock and heavy metal are two variations on one form of music that were closely related throughout the first few decades of the development of both genres. The phrase heavy metal itself was first used to describe bands that by most contemporaries and most certainly in retrospect are regarded as hard rock: One of the first documented uses of the expression to describe music was used by Mike Saunders of Creem Magazine to describe the 1971 album by Sir Lord Baltimore. The phrase itself was popularized by US act Steppenwolf in their immortal anthem Born to Be Wild, while Iron Butterfly's song "In a Gadda da Vida" from 1968 for many years was described as the first heavy metal song.

When heavy metal settled and started developing as a genre, the two major players early on were Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. While the deep, dark and twisted sounds of the latter never ventured into other musical realms, Led Zeppelin was a band that moved back and forth between hard rock and metal through their career. More often than not exploring the fields of the former rather than the latter. Later on bands like Blue Oyster Cult was described as "the thinking man's heavy metal", with a distinctly dark sound on many of their albums that had strong metal references yet was performed in a manner much more similar to what was then and now described as hard rock.

While the two genres slowly drifted apart throughput the 70's, the 1980's brought them together again full force with the sudden rise in popularity of the so-called hair metal bands. An old and experienced hard rock artist like Alice Copper started exploring this genre, even acts like Kiss and Aerosmith was seen as belonging to that movement in one form or another. And the musical expression of the movement itself blurred the lines between hard rock and metal with it's subdued guitar expressions, preference for strong melodies and catchy chorus lines. Indeed, many bands sorted under the hair metal and glam metal umbrella would have been dubbed AOR in previous years.

At the same time as this highly commercial part of metal was on the rise, other movements stared evolving that would take metal in completely different directions as well. Metallica and Anthrax in the US, Venom in England, Hellhammer in Switzerland and a steadily rising number of bands started to develop what many fans of metal music refers to as metal today, with thrash metal, black metal and death metal as the founding genres of a new subset of metal music.

Of the most interesting aspects to note in this development was how they drew in two other types of harder edged music that had been regarded as separate entities, namely hardcore and punk. Thrash bands like Anthrax included many aspects of punk in their music, while bands like Circle Jerks to some extent and Nuclear Assault to a much larger extent included the US-based hardcore sound into their stylistic expressions. And while punk and hardcore inspired the evolvement of indie rock and alternative rock in the mainstream music scene, the more dramatic parts parts of those musical expressions were also put to good use amongst metal bands. In later years, genres like metalcore showcase just how much of an impact this would bring to the metal community.

Separating hard rock and heavy metal is a difficult exercise. While most people born after 1980 might not see the problem, those who have lived long enough to witness the rise and development of both genres in the 1970's will indeed have major problems in drawing a line between one and the other. And as the use of distorted electric guitars is such a central element in both genres, in many cases the difference between one and the other will merely be a subtle nuance, and in many cases we will find hard rock bands with a much more metal based sound than many acts sporting a pure metal pedigree as well. Cue the aforementioned hair metal movement of the 1980's."

With this large bucket of ice water dropped into the discussion, I guess some debate will follow ;-)

Raff wrote:   Many people perceive stuff like Back in Black as heavy metal, even if we (the experts) think it's not. The dividing line between hard rock and classic heavy metal is VERY thin, unlike the one between 'traditional' prog and the newer subgenres, or 'real' prog and prog-related.

Windhawk wrote: Here's the controversial take on hard rock (unsurprisingly) from me:

Windhawk wrote:   while Iron Butterfly's song "In a Gadda da Vida" from 1968 for many years was described as the first heavy metal song

Cue the Steppenwolf citation, it seems that it was coined frequently by one particular music reviewer way back when, and that it caught on since:

"This is an FYI based on a handful of queries that have come my way in the course of, but unrelated to, my career as a writer of mystery and suspense novels. In the dim, dark recesses of history and my resume, and using the byline Mike Jahn, I was the first rock critic for the daily New York Times. In that regard I appear to have coined the phrase "heavy metal." At least I have repeatedly been told that I did. Here is the genesis: there were, in the laste 60s and early 70s, several bands that used metallic/heavy equipment imagery in their names: Led Zeppelin, Iron Butterfly, Grand Funk Railroad, and MC5 (Motor City Five). I described them citing the phrase "heavy metal thunder" from the Steppenwolf song "Born to Be Wild." Apparently the category name of "heavy metal" music devolved from that.

If I'm wrong, will someone please correct me? I'm not terribly proprietary about the matter, didn't patent it or anything, though I did rather expect that the achievement would earn me a lifetime supply of hair spray and leather pants.

Michael Jahn"

Cue Sabbath: They didn't influence too many of their contemporaries active in the music scene alongside themselves, but their fans did start making their own bands towards the end of the decade.

Some bands that did start out before the 80's were Pentagram, Witchfinder General, Witchfynde. Budgie might be reckoned in there as well. But the main impact of Sabbath started to be felt first in the early 80s, with bands like Trouble spearheading what would eventually develop from downer metal to doom metal.