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'alternative' metal... discuss

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2010 at 4:13am
I think of alternative metal as metal or metallish music which just doesn't fit into any of the established metal genres. Sometimes, a subgenre may be formed on the bases of common traits among artists which are otherwise considered alternative metal. I certainly consider it a viable genre on these pages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coorpz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2010 at 1:11pm
Who cares. Music is music. Arguing over music genres is pointless, nobody will win. That said, genres are just tags people apply to them arbitrarily. On my iPod, I named every artists genre as "Subjective".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2010 at 4:51am
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

So basically : alternative metal = grunge (Soundgarden, AiC, Nirvana) + noise rock (Helmet, Sonic Youth) + alternative rock (Smashing Pumpkins, Jane's Addicion) + groove metal (King's X) + funk metal (FFF, fishbone, living colour, infectious grooves)

I think that makes sense to have all these bands under one flag...
 
 
I agree very much with thisClap, especially with RHCP and RATM  in the same categoryStar
 
Don't care how it's called - as long as it makes sense and represent this lump of bands


Edited by Sean Trane - 07 Apr 2010 at 7:12am
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2010 at 5:43am
Originally posted by coorpz coorpz wrote:

Who cares. Music is music. Arguing over music genres is pointless, nobody will win. That said, genres are just tags people apply to them arbitrarily.


I agree 100%, and I have more or less given up on the myriad of genres and subgenres that reign in the contemporary music world.

But the fact that we do operate with genres based on perceived commonalities does reflect our human need to categorize everything. The interesting thing about alternative metal as a genre is that there are not that many commonalities. It's more like the trashcan, or the adverbial, of metal - a category where we place artists that we cannot fit into other genres.

But, again, I totally agree with you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2010 at 6:27am
I basically agree that some people (or make it many) are obsessed with categorization, and often end up not seeing the forest for the trees. However, let's remember that categorization is necessary as a reference when the amount of material available is quite vast. No one would ever conceive of a library without any form of categorization - finding books would become impossible. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2010 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I basically agree that some people (or make it many) are obsessed with categorization, and often end up not seeing the forest for the trees. However, let's remember that categorization is necessary as a reference when the amount of material available is quite vast. No one would ever conceive of a library without any form of categorization - finding books would become impossible. 


Not just that - cognitive scientists have shown that categorization is a very basic human cognitive process. I wonder what they could learm from the study of metal subgenres ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2010 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I basically agree that some people (or make it many) are obsessed with categorization, and often end up not seeing the forest for the trees. However, let's remember that categorization is necessary as a reference when the amount of material available is quite vast. No one would ever conceive of a library without any form of categorization - finding books would become impossible. 


Not just that - cognitive scientists have shown that categorization is a very basic human cognitive process. I wonder what they could learm from the study of metal subgenres ;-)


they'd find that the study of metal subgenres is undergraduate work...kid stuff...  the real stuff... the PhD work is in the field of prog rock categorization.  LOL


Edited by micky - 07 Apr 2010 at 5:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mosefus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2010 at 2:35pm
I guess a band like Katatonia would qualify as alternative metal.  Though their earlier work was very definitely doom death, their latest offerings are really tough to categorise, so alternative seems a good fit.  I'm thinking of Viva Emptiness onwards, here, incidentally.
You can also throw Madder mortem in there, too, with the strangely wailed yet oddly hypnotic vocal style. 


Edited by mosefus - 09 Apr 2010 at 2:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coorpz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2010 at 11:36pm
I've been fine just calling music...music! Sometimes I'll say, "thats f**king kick-ass, thats what it is" or "heavy pseudo intellectual bullsh*t obvious technical wakery". It gets the point across. And I don't have to explain anything. It's like some people can just slap around terms and sound cool for knowing and applying them. IMO genre is just a disease, no music needs classification if you don't want it to. Word of mouth or descriptors is just better, but it's all subjective anyway. Trying to look objective by tagging something with a genre is an antithesis in and of itself.

Person 1 - "DUDE. Did you hear that band 'Philosophical Nothingness'? It's liek....New Wave Tech-Death Progcore, man!"
Person 2 - "Dude, stfu with yr generz."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2010 at 7:52am
Originally posted by coorpz coorpz wrote:

I've been fine just calling music...music! Sometimes I'll say, "thats f**king kick-ass, thats what it is" or "heavy pseudo intellectual bullsh*t obvious technical wakery". It gets the point across. And I don't have to explain anything. It's like some people can just slap around terms and sound cool for knowing and applying them. IMO genre is just a disease, no music needs classification if you don't want it to. Word of mouth or descriptors is just better, but it's all subjective anyway. Trying to look objective by tagging something with a genre is an antithesis in and of itself.

Person 1 - "DUDE. Did you hear that band 'Philosophical Nothingness'? It's liek....New Wave Tech-Death Progcore, man!"
Person 2 - "Dude, stfu with yr generz."


Books are books all the same, but try to suggest abolishing classification in libraries, and see what happens. I agree with you that some people take things too far with the whole genre thing, but you should also remember that most people need to be guided, particularly when they are not familiar with something. Anyway, calling genre a 'disease' is a bit too harsh, especially on a site that uses this kind of classification.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nightfly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2010 at 8:08am
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I basically agree that some people (or make it many) are obsessed with categorization, and often end up not seeing the forest for the trees. However, let's remember that categorization is necessary as a reference when the amount of material available is quite vast. No one would ever conceive of a library without any form of categorization - finding books would become impossible. 


Not just that - cognitive scientists have shown that categorization is a very basic human cognitive process. I wonder what they could learm from the study of metal subgenres ;-)


they'd find that the study of metal subgenres is undergraduate work...kid stuff...  the real stuff... the PhD work is in the field of prog rock categorization.  LOL
 
You ain't kidding! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coorpz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2010 at 10:01am
Well, it is for people who live by it/abuse it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beekeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2010 at 10:54am
Alt metal seems like a fairly flimsy descriptor. I see genres as primarily a means of distinguishing artists and categorising similar artists for the sake of exploring and understanding music but 'alt metal' - does it really correspond to anything concrete? I mean I know all genres are abstract concepts with subjective definitions but this one just seems a lot less obvious than the instantly recognisable thrash or power metal genres for example.

Slight tangent: I would really like a stoner metal subgenre at some point in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2010 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Beekeeper Beekeeper wrote:

Alt metal seems like a fairly flimsy descriptor. I see genres as primarily a means of distinguishing artists and categorising similar artists for the sake of exploring and understanding music but 'alt metal' - does it really correspond to anything concrete? I mean I know all genres are abstract concepts with subjective definitions but this one just seems a lot less obvious than the instantly recognisable thrash or power metal genres for example.

Slight tangent: I would really like a stoner metal subgenre at some point in the future.


Alternative metal is a definition used by other sites too. As you may have noticed, most of the genre definitions are shared by most metal sites (just like the majority of those at PA are). This does not mean we cannot improve upon those definitions, but we need viable suggestions. Personally, being familiar with a good deal of the bands included in that particular subgenre, I think 'alt metal' is a very fitting description, therefore don't feel the need to change it. This does not mean I'm right, as you pointed out... However, I am all too aware that finding the perfect definition (unless it is an old, already established one, like 'thrash' or 'power' metal) is far from easy, and that an imperfect definition is better than none.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beekeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2010 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Beekeeper Beekeeper wrote:

Alt metal seems like a fairly flimsy descriptor. I see genres as primarily a means of distinguishing artists and categorising similar artists for the sake of exploring and understanding music but 'alt metal' - does it really correspond to anything concrete? I mean I know all genres are abstract concepts with subjective definitions but this one just seems a lot less obvious than the instantly recognisable thrash or power metal genres for example.

Slight tangent: I would really like a stoner metal subgenre at some point in the future.


Alternative metal is a definition used by other sites too. As you may have noticed, most of the genre definitions are shared by most metal sites (just like the majority of those at PA are). This does not mean we cannot improve upon those definitions, but we need viable suggestions. Personally, being familiar with a good deal of the bands included in that particular subgenre, I think 'alt metal' is a very fitting description, therefore don't feel the need to change it. This does not mean I'm right, as you pointed out... However, I am all too aware that finding the perfect definition (unless it is an old, already established one, like 'thrash' or 'power' metal) is far from easy, and that an imperfect definition is better than none.


Yeah very true, better to have it than to not have it.

Don't get me started on PA genres though, Heavy/Crossover/Eclectic prog etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aapatsos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2010 at 3:24pm
I realised that Sepultura are under Alt metal - blasphemy?LOL

Honestly, I see them in the thrash metal category - they were just groovier than similar bands of the genre...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beekeeper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2010 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

I realised that Sepultura are under Alt metal - blasphemy?LOL

Honestly, I see them in the thrash metal category - they were just groovier than similar bands of the genre...


Yeah they were definitely thrash if not death pre-chaos AD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phonebook Eater Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 1:43pm
Alternative metal is a mix between the 80s alt rock(R.E.M., Smiths) and heavy metal. Some times, it can also be mixed with hip hop elements (this genre is known as Nu Metal)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pekka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2010 at 3:25am
Originally posted by aapatsos aapatsos wrote:

I realised that Sepultura are under Alt metal - blasphemy?LOL

Honestly, I see them in the thrash metal category - they were just groovier than similar bands of the genre...
 
I hope you also realize that half their output is under Thrash and some even Death Wink That's the beauty of the tagging individual albums thingy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLocke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2010 at 3:49pm
In my opinion, 'Nu Metal' was never really a true genre. Ir was more of a trend/fad/era that lasted for a decade or two then died off. Bands that were considered part of that particular style continued on even after that definition was no longer being used, and their sound has evolved and changed like any other band that you might consider 'Alternative'. Why not include them?

Sorry, just now got here, so if I came in late or am stating reduntant info, I apologize.


Edited by JLocke - 20 May 2010 at 3:50pm
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