Avant-Garde Metal Appreciation Thread

I think avant metal might be my favorite metal genre.  I love metal that can get highly experimental without still losing it's identity as metal.

Edited by NecronCommander - 03 Sep 2010 at 8:43pm

Ahh okay 
Well look, the "embarressed smilie" means youre humble, thats cool . . .

I think most here would agree (I said most -now) that "Destroy Erase Improve" may be the one to
help you understand them better, its their most progressive but still heavy as %^&$!
Their are more of Fredriks "Holdsworth influenced solos" too, but the thing is about Meshuggah
is its all 4/4 but its the weird stuff they do within those parameters, its meant to be "groovy" and
aggressive but its not your typical Death Metal or Thrash, its like the most complicated Metallica
or Pantera music, mesh them and then add its own style with a bit of Fusion.
Get that album and listen to it a few times on headphones . . . but its up to you if you'll like it .

But you do like Special Defects so its a possibility you will like that album at-least (maybe their
1st Contradictions Collapse and 2nd None), but I think "I" is brilliant too .

Seeing your List of bands you like, I'm surprised youre not into them .

Extra Note:  For you Special Defects: Sol Niger Within fans . . . NEW ALBUM being worked on!
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=936&PN=1




Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 02 Sep 2010 at 5:03am

Ragnar wrote: Can Arcturus be considered Avant-Garde? I would think so. Worst comes to worst, just be apocryphal and call them "Carnival Metal". :)

Look at some of the past pages many of us think so . . .
But listen to Unexpect, Stolen Babies, Diablo Swing Orchestra and Sleepytime Gorilla Museum,
not only a "Carnival" . . . but a damn freakshow! (Mr. Bungle/Fantomas can be too).
. . . Yikes! that Abruptum is pretty scary, its like Doom Metal meets Death Metal/Grindcore with a
little Avant Garde for seasoning!

By the way ProgKidJoe, what Meshuggah albums did you listen to? Not that I'm here to change your
mind or anything, and not that they are Avant Garde (except Catch 33) . . . I seem to be repeating
myself here . . . I seem to be repeating myself here . . . I seem to be repeating myself here . . .

Can SOMEONE please add more "different" named Avant Garde Bands to check out please!



Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 02 Sep 2010 at 5:09am

To be honest, I really can't get into Meshuggah at all after having heard two albums; although I absolutely love Sol Niger Within from Fredrik Thorendal's Special Defects.

kogaionon wrote: brilliant, but the fredrik thordendal album is very hard to find... i tried looking for it in oslo (via a friend), vienna and prague, but with no luck

Hopefully this will help

From Thordendals MYspace site (Blog entry):
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=45056367&blogId=263647628

Seems its at Morgan �grens (Drummer extraordinare) site in his Merch Shop!
http://morganagren.com/

Good luck and enjoy!!!

Topofsm . . .
Oh yes! Fredrik's album is definately more "Free Jazz" (Fusion) than most Math Metal .
But I see it "within" the framework of his type of Math Metal (4/4), keep in mind that
Fredrik's big influence is Holdsworth.  Holdsworth is a Jazz/Fusion Guitarist who is very
experimental, free form, lets his fellow musicians use the "space" and uses alot of
"Legato", in other words, he picks the strings with a Pick like other guitarists but he also
"plays" the notes with his right hand/fingers on the Frets - to create a "non-picking"
sound (Legato).
Fredrik does this too, but he also has found a Lead FX that emulates the Legato sound.
(I know it well, as I use to have a Korg Pedal Board where I programmed a similar
effect).  John McLaughlin and Chris Poland (Ohm/Damn the Machine era) also have a
similar sound and they are/or definately embrace the Jazz/Fusion-Free Form sound as
well .

Patton's Projects definately fit in that Free Form Fusion/Metal territory And I can
hear Primus doing the same at times.

but back to the avante garde . . .


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 26 Aug 2010 at 4:17am

^ Fair enough. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

That being said, Sol Niger Within has far more free jazz influence than any 'standard' math metal release that I've come across, even among Meshuggah's discography. It is notable that when free jazz first became an established genre in the 50s it was also somewhat interchangeably referred to as avant-garde. I'm sure Harry from PA could explain this better than I can (I can't remember if he has an account here or not. I don't think he posts here regularly to say the least).

 These free jazz elements also appear in established avant-garde metal releases, even with groups as popular as Mike Patton's Mr. Bungle in Fantomas. At this point I probably don't need to go much further to explain where he got it from, since nearly everyone knows about his collaborations with John Zorn.

I especially like this video:


Now THAT's avant-garde! (not really metal though)

UMUR wrote: ^I�ve reviewed the album for Prog Archives and I actually found it rather mediocre. I had a hard time getting through the album enough times to write a review (Age of Silence).   All but lead vocalist Lars Nedland, who btw is not the lead singer in Spiral Architect and Twisted Into Form, are also members of Winds. Another band I have a hard time really appreciating. Skilled musicians, but most of their stuff fail to captivate me.

Hey UMUR,
You know, I was ready to "prove you wrong" But by God! You are right and I'm amazed that
Leif Knashaug is NOT the singer of Age of Silence . . . they (both singers) sound Identicle in just
about everyway (though I have only heard AoS on Internet Radio, dont own the album and are
new to me) . . . so far.  I mean listen to these 3 examples:

"Lars Nedland":


"Leif Knashaug":

(Leif was original singer before "�yvind H�geland" but Leif only
appears on Demos).

Leif again:


They sing in the same odd structures, within different musics, I'm amazed!

I have to say I like "Winds" as well. A "Thrashier" Opeth-like sound, but when I first heard them long
ago, I thought the same UMUR. I think thats why I cant be a "Critic" and write about new releases,
my moods change, hearing fluctuates to what I'm "into" at the moment, and sometimes I need to
take an album one "track" at a time to  . . . get it.   I couldnt get into "The Gathering" at 1st when I
bought "How to measure a Planet", then to have "if_then_else" sit on my shelf for 3 years, and
then to re-discover it (long story) and then being a HUGE fan of theirs and "then else" becoming
my fave album in their catalogue (And "Night time Birds") .
This would include MANY bands I did not like at 1st (or Albums), then years later say, "What the
HELL was I thinking?"

Topos (and whomever else), without getting into an argument, just speaking for myself, the only
parts I hear that are Avant Garde in Sol Niger are some interludes in the music with the "Spoken
Word" of Tomas Haak and the "Atmospheric" parts, but those are just little "moods" to coincide
with the lyrical content and music, its not throughout the music like a "Age of Silence" or a Sleepy
Time Gorilla Museum etc. , its not a "constant".
The Jazz/Fusion parts are defintely there (as Fredrik sounds like a Heavy Metal version of Allan
Holdsworth) through enhanced styles of the Guitar and the added Sax, but its much like Ihsahn's
Solo albums do the same (Sax too) but not in an Avant Garde context throughout (just a few left-
turns).
If this were the case,  ALL "Math Metal/Tech-Metal/Progressive Metal" could be rolled into 1 ball.
I think 90% of Progressive Rock and Metal have Jazz/Fusion influences, along with the Classical,
Blues, World and other sources . . . thats why its in the genre "Progressive", its musical Soup.

Age of Silence I think just teaters over the edge to Avant Garde, because their is a cohesive
melody but just enough "angular/odd-meter" to that melody that in-fact . . . it is Odd.
Sol Niger I believe is 4/4, but like Meshauggah its what they do "within" 4/4, but it has a groove,
it can be odd-timing - take a left-turn, but it goes back to the 4/4, its following a cohesive line,
until we run into those "Atmospheres" that make it seem Avant Garde (does that make any sense,
I can go soak my head in a bucket of Pirahnas if you'd like ).
Again, Meshuggah's "Catch 33" is VERY different than all their other albums.

If it were filtered through one description (like here at MMA) it would be simply "Prog Metal" .
But saying to a Genesis Fan, "Hey, I heard you like Progressive Rock, have you heard
Meshuggah?"  and then you wonder why that friend is slapping you after the 1st  20 seconds of
Future Breed Machine! .

To each their own, I've heard so many different types of Avant Garde Bands and Math/Tech Metal
(Thrash and Death) Bands that I immediately hear the difference, but sometimes it takes some
time to figure out . . . What the hell IS THIS music anyway!???
(Keep in mind, the average "Metal Head" will listen to both kinds of this music and say . . .
THIS HAS NO SOUL! ITS ALL NOISE!!! ).

Thanks for your continued indulgeance in my poop .

Yes Wiki is written by Arm Chair enthusiasts like us, but check them out:

Spiral Architect (not very cohesive):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Architect
Age of Silence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Silence
Special Defects (Sol Niger Within album):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Niger_Within


Edited by MAVIIIVAM - 25 Aug 2010 at 4:35pm

^I�ve reviewed the album for Prog Archives and I actually found it rather mediocre. I had a hard time getting through the album enough times to write a review.

Never heard Comus, but its funny that the melody at the beginning of  a song I sampled
sounds like the same melody on Thought Industry's "Song for Insects"-on the song
"The Challice Vermillion"

Just heard this on YOUtube, and was always intrigued by the Cover Art:

(I believe thats the Vocalist from Twisted Into Form and Spiral Architects
original Singer).

Really cool!