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Help With An Online List Of Metal

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 1:21am

Aren't all lists horrible to people who don't agree with them?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 1:39am
Anyway, I'd probably also add Rainbow's "Long Live Rock 'n' Roll" to my list if I did a similar list (great that "Rising" is there). You have Celtic Frost's "To Mega Therion", which I applaud, but I'd also add "Into the Pandemonium" and "Cold Lake" ("Into the Pandemonium" for being groundbreak in the creation of avant-garde metal and "Cold Lake" because they suddenly went glam which created an uproar in the metal community). Exodus-wise, I'd also add "Impact is Immanent" or "Fabulous Disaster", and Carcass-wise "Necroticism" would definitely be on my list. Oh, and King Diamond should be represented, too, probably with "Abigail", "Them", and "Conspiracy". Testament, being one of the legendary thrash metal band would also have to be represented with one of their earlier albums. I also think that Agnostic Front's "Cause for Alarm" is an important crossover release, and, so, I'd include it on my list if I did a similar one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingcrimsonprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 7:30am
Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Please don't be offended when I say this, but [spoiler]That list is horrible[/spoiler]


Cool, this is useful. What would you change ?
What would you add, subtract, re-arrange ?

Why do you say that ? Dislike the albums, Disagree with the albums historical significance, disagree that the albums represent their band and genre well, what ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IMPF2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Please don't be offended when I say this, but [spoiler]That list is horrible[/spoiler]


Cool, this is useful. What would you change ?
What would you add, subtract, re-arrange ?

Why do you say that ? Dislike the albums, Disagree with the albums historical significance, disagree that the albums represent their band and genre well, what ?

ELP, Genesis, Yes, Nick Drake (among others) have absolutely nothing to do with Metal. There not even close to being Hard Rock. I like all those artists, but I'm confused as to why they are on there.

Follow the Reaper should be on there instead of Hate Crew Deathroll.

Moonsorrow, Arkona and Primordial should be on there for Folk Metal.

There's waaay too many Grunge/Alt/Nu Metal/Groove Metal/Metalcore on there. I guess I could understand putting some on, but there's just way too many on there, especially since those genres are among the least prominent in the Metal scene.

Terria and Ocean Machine should be on there with Ziltoid.

There should be a section on Avant-Garde Metal. Some suggestions are Arcuturus' The Sham Mirrors, maudlin of the Well's Bath, Gorguts' Obscura, Devin Townsend's Deconstruction, Imaginary Sonicscape by Sigh, Into the Pandemonium by Celtic Frost, and Mr. Bungle's s/t.

The fact that there's only one Bathory album is depressing. Hammerheart, Blood Fire Death and the s/t most definitley deserve to be on there along with Under the Sign...

The Black Metal section is so horribly incomplete I don't even know where to start.



Aside from that, the list isn't too bad. Sorry if you think I'm being an asshole or something like that. 





Edited by IMPF2112 - 13 May 2012 at 8:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingcrimsonprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 9:17am
Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Please don't be offended when I say this, but [spoiler]That list is horrible[/spoiler]


Cool, this is useful. What would you change ?
What would you add, subtract, re-arrange ?

Why do you say that ? Dislike the albums, Disagree with the albums historical significance, disagree that the albums represent their band and genre well, what ?

1. ELP, Genesis, Yes, Nick Drake (among others) have absolutely nothing to do with Metal. There not even close to being Hard Rock. I like all those artists, but I'm confused as to why they are on there.

2. Follow the Reaper should be on there instead of Hate Crew Deathroll.

3. Moonsorrow, Arkona and Primordial should be on there for Folk Metal.

4. There's waaay too many Grunge/Alt/Nu Metal/Groove Metal/Metalcore on there. I guess I could understand putting some on, but there's just way too many on there, especially since those genres are among the least prominent in the Metal scene.

5. Terria and Ocean Machine should be on there with Ziltoid.

6. There should be a section on Avant-Garde Metal. Some suggestions are Arcuturus' The Sham Mirrors, maudlin of the Well's Bath, Gorguts' Obscura, Devin Townsend's Deconstruction, Imaginary Sonicscape by Sigh, Into the Pandemonium by Celtic Frost, and Mr. Bungle's s/t.

8. The fact that there's only one Bathory album is depressing. Hammerheart, Blood Fire Death and the s/t most definitley deserve to be on there along with Under the Sign...

9. The Black Metal section is so horribly incomplete I don't even know where to start.


Aside from that, the list isn't too bad. Sorry if you think I'm being an asshole or something like that. 

This is not some huge angry rant. Tone is difficult to discern on the internet so it may look like I'm getting heated because you cant hear the tone of my voice and see my body language or facial expressions, but this is a calm and neural-emotioned explanation:


1. They're in there because of their huge influence on Prog Metal, because of their huge and constantly documented influence on Priest and Maiden and because they always turn up on these lists, including Metal Hammer's recent 300 Metal Albums issue.

4. I would argue that they aren't as irrelevant as you think, its just that those aren't the parts of metal that you personally focus on.
A) they're hugely important for luring in new metal fans, started tonnes of metal and hard rock musician's careers, influenced tonnes and tonnes of new musicians to start and soon the influence of people who grew up on the likes disturbed and linkin park will start to break through.
B) Metalcore has been one of the most important and populous genres for new fans in the past 15 years.
C) All the grunge, alternative & posthardcore stuff is important for its influence on metalcore,nu metal, djent, newer avant garde, the wave and those new british hardcore metal bands.
D) For people aged 12-18, this section is much more relevant than NWOBHM, Doom,Black or some of the 'cooler' subgenres. And since the list is about what you need to have heard to understand the holistic entirety of metal those are the very things I wanted to cover. 

3,6,9. I don't know about those genres at all, so all/most of my info has been based on suggestions from forums like this one. You may well be right there.  I'll definitely look into those and am grateful for the suggestions.

2,5,8.  That ones just down to opinion. Its from the hundred's of lists, podcasts, articles, documentaries and forum posts I've ever experienced that the ones in there got chosen, I haven't seen the same evidence for the ones you've chosen a for the once that I've chosen, or else I would have chosen them because again my opinion of how good something is or isn't is absent from this list, and the entire point of the list is what you'd need to have heard to definitively understand all metal, not which albums are good.
The only reason that quiet a lot of the albums are good, is only because the good ones were often influential or genre-definitive.



Edited by Kingcrimsonprog - 13 May 2012 at 3:12pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingcrimsonprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 9:59am
OK.

Its up to 400 now.
Only 100 to go.




http://kingcrimsonprog.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/list-of-albums-that-you-need-to-have-heard-to-have-a-full-and-comprehensive-understanding-of-metal-music/#Power%20Metal



I wish I could remember the name of some of those new bands that are half pop-punk and half metal.
Ambient Black Metal is still only 1 album. I know it exists but I don't know any of the bands.


Two things that I could include but am resistant to are The Dethalbum by Dethklock and Spinal Tap's first album. I dunno, they feel too much like compilations and no 'proper' studio albums to me.



Edited by Kingcrimsonprog - 13 May 2012 at 10:00am


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 12:15pm
Some more suggestions from me:

Maximum the Hormone: ぶっ生き返す
Because it is an example of how alternative/nu metal can actually be interesting and innovative.

Clawfinger: Deaf Dumb Blind
Perhaps the most important rap metal album in European metal history ever.

Artillery: By Inheritance
I think this is an underappreciated technical thrash metal album, featuring some of the sickest vocals in the history of the genre.

Sepultura: Arise
Legendary thrash metal album and, to many, the last good Sepultura album.

Nuclear Assault: Handle With Care
Unique eco-thrash album with crossover elements - nothing sounds like that album, I think.

Invocator: Dying to Live
Deserves mention for being one of the most innovative and technical (dare I say progressive) groove thrash albums of its time.

Psychotic Waltz: Into the Everflow and A Social Grace
I remember people ranting on about these releases back in the day and, while they've perhaps faded (eh?) from the spotlight these days, they were definitely important milestones in the world of progressive metal.

Fates Warning: Awaken the Guardian
This is generally the preferred album among the John Arch-worshipping faction of FW fans, and it is generally an important album in progressive metal.

Anvil: Metal on Metal
Their most iconic release, I think, and quite influential - not just in traditional heavy metal, but also in other genres.

Running Wild: Under Jolly Roger and Port Royal
Considered some of the most important "pirate metal" albums.

Funeral: Tristesse
Important doom metal album and, according to many, the seminal funeral doom album.

Paradise Lost: Lost Paradise
My Dying Bride: As the Flower Withers
Anathema: Serenades
All for being seminal death-doom albums.

Are you going to write a couple of words per album on the list, by the way? It would be interesting to read why you think that each album is important to the world of metal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diogenes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 12:28pm
On the topic of technical thrash, I'd look into Watchtower, Coroner, and Toxik.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingcrimsonprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:


Are you going to write a couple of words per album on the list, by the way? It would be interesting to read why you think that each album is important to the world of metal.


I dunno, it would get very repetitive. Every article would either be essentially 'this is an example of what thrash metal sounds like' or else 'this influenced Emperor's guitar style'

All the weird ones would just be 'because Nu Metal/Djent/The-more-emoish-selection-of-Metalcore bands liked it'


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by Diogenes Diogenes wrote:

On the topic of technical thrash, I'd look into Watchtower, Coroner, and Toxik.  


Oh yeah, definitely Watchtower.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IMPF2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Please don't be offended when I say this, but [spoiler]That list is horrible[/spoiler]


Cool, this is useful. What would you change ?
What would you add, subtract, re-arrange ?

Why do you say that ? Dislike the albums, Disagree with the albums historical significance, disagree that the albums represent their band and genre well, what ?

1. ELP, Genesis, Yes, Nick Drake (among others) have absolutely nothing to do with Metal. There not even close to being Hard Rock. I like all those artists, but I'm confused as to why they are on there.

2. Follow the Reaper should be on there instead of Hate Crew Deathroll.

3. Moonsorrow, Arkona and Primordial should be on there for Folk Metal.

4. There's waaay too many Grunge/Alt/Nu Metal/Groove Metal/Metalcore on there. I guess I could understand putting some on, but there's just way too many on there, especially since those genres are among the least prominent in the Metal scene.

5. Terria and Ocean Machine should be on there with Ziltoid.

6. There should be a section on Avant-Garde Metal. Some suggestions are Arcuturus' The Sham Mirrors, maudlin of the Well's Bath, Gorguts' Obscura, Devin Townsend's Deconstruction, Imaginary Sonicscape by Sigh, Into the Pandemonium by Celtic Frost, and Mr. Bungle's s/t.

8. The fact that there's only one Bathory album is depressing. Hammerheart, Blood Fire Death and the s/t most definitley deserve to be on there along with Under the Sign...

9. The Black Metal section is so horribly incomplete I don't even know where to start.


Aside from that, the list isn't too bad. Sorry if you think I'm being an asshole or something like that. 

This is not some huge angry rant. Tone is difficult to discern on the internet so it may look like I'm getting heated because you cant hear the tone of my voice and see my body language or facial expressions, but this is a calm and neural-emotioned explanation:


1. They're in there because of their huge influence on Prog Metal, because of their huge and constantly documented influence on Priest and Maiden and because they always turn up on these lists, including Metal Hammer's recent 300 Metal Albums issue.

4. I would argue that they aren't as irrelevant as you think, its just that those aren't the parts of metal that you personally focus on.
A) they're hugely important for luring in new metal fans, started tonnes of metal and hard rock musician's careers, influenced tonnes and tonnes of new musicians to start and soon the influence of people who grew up on the likes disturbed and linkin park will start to break through.
B) Metalcore has been one of the most important and populous genres for new fans in the past 15 years.
C) All the grunge, alternative & posthardcore stuff is important for its influence on metalcore,nu metal, djent, newer avant garde, the wave and those new british hardcore metal bands.
D) For people aged 12-18, this section is much more relevant than NWOBHM, Doom,Black or some of the 'cooler' subgenres. And since the list is about what you need to have heard to understand the holistic entirety of metal those are the very things I wanted to cover. 

3,6,9. I don't know about those genres at all, so all/most of my info has been based on suggestions from forums like this one. You may well be right there.  I'll definitely look into those and am grateful for the suggestions.

2,5,8.  That ones just down to opinion. Its from the hundred's of lists, podcasts, articles, documentaries and forum posts I've ever experienced that the ones in there got chosen, I haven't seen the same evidence for the ones you've chosen a for the once that I've chosen, or else I would have chosen them because again my opinion of how good something is or isn't is absent from this list, and the entire point of the list is what you'd need to have heard to definitively understand all metal, not which albums are good.
The only reason that quiet a lot of the albums are good, is only because the good ones were often influential or genre-definitive.


The Bathory albums I suggested are not simply a matter of opinion. Bathory's self-titled is quite possibly the first real Black Metal album ever. Hammerheart single-handedly invented the entire Viking Metal genre. Blood Fire Death is arguably Bathory's most popular albums with fans and critics.

Also, some more suggestions for you:


Crimson by Edge of Sanity. One of the most notable albums of the Progressive Death Metal genre, and arguably the most popular album of prominent Metal musician Dan Swanö's career.


The Maniacal Vale by Esoteric. The most popular band of the modern Doom Metal scene, and a good example for the Funeral Doom and Death Doom sub-genres.


Mabool by Orphaned Land. This Israeli Metal band was one of the first to combine Progressive Metal with Middle Eastern Folk Music, and have become one of the most popular bands in the Middle-Eastern Metal scene, and as stated here, they have managed to break social boundaries between communities of Jews and Muslims in the Middle East which I think is quite notable.

I shall also eventually give you a large list of Black Metal recs to add to your list, but that will be for another day.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IMPF2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 8:07pm
Also, the fact that you have two albums by Limp Bizkit on that list and none by Atheist or Cynic makes me wanna commit Seppuku or something.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IMPF2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 8:13pm
And also your argument that Metalcore/Nu Metal is as important than NWOBHM, Doom Metal and Black Metal because a bunch of kids who are new to Metal are into it is the equivalent of saying that Blink 182 are just as important to Punk Rock as the Sex Pistols, and even though I'm not much of an expert on Punk Rock, I know for a fact that's absolute bullshit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Also, the fact that you have two albums by Limp Bizkit on that list and none by Atheist or Cynic makes me wanna commit Seppuku or something.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dreadpirateroberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2012 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

OK.

Its up to 400 now.
Only 100 to go.

http://kingcrimsonprog.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/list-of-albums-that-you-need-to-have-heard-to-have-a-full-and-comprehensive-understanding-of-metal-music/#Power%20Metal

I wish I could remember the name of some of those new bands that are half pop-punk and half metal.
Ambient Black Metal is still only 1 album. I know it exists but I don't know any of the bands.

Two things that I could include but am resistant to are The Dethalbum by Dethklock and Spinal Tap's first album. I dunno, they feel too much like compilations and no 'proper' studio albums to me.

 
Great work, a big task you've taken on, I'm impressed with the scope.
And was really pleased to see Acid Bath in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2012 at 3:43am
Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

And also your argument that Metalcore/Nu Metal is as important than NWOBHM, Doom Metal and Black Metal because a bunch of kids who are new to Metal are into it is the equivalent of saying that Blink 182 are just as important to Punk Rock as the Sex Pistols, and even though I'm not much of an expert on Punk Rock, I know for a fact that's absolute bullshit.


I'm inclined to agreeing with Kingcrimsonprog here. Perhaps metalcore is not important to me, because I'd already discovered metal back in the 80s through Iron Maiden, Metallica, AC/DC and the like - they introduced me to the entire metal universe. I can imagine that metalcore and nu metal bands have the exact same function to kids today as the trad. and thrash metal bands had to me back then. So, I actually fully understand Kingcrimsonprog's bird's-eye view-based argument here. Your line of argumentation seems to be based on the metal-elite vs. metal-noob perspective, but I don't think that that's the principle that Kingcrimsonprog's list is structured by.

Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Also, the fact that you have two albums by Limp Bizkit on that list and none by Atheist or Cynic makes me wanna commit Seppuku or something.


It's just a list. There's no need to kill yourself over it... but if you end up doing it, perhaps you could just hang yourself or take some pills. That's less messy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingcrimsonprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2012 at 7:53am
Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Also, the fact that you have two albums by Limp Bizkit on that list and none by Atheist or Cynic makes me wanna commit Seppuku or something.


Lol, both Athiest and Cynic are in there.

Yeah, I did some looking up, checking old lists and mag countdowns and there is definitely a case for those Bathory albums, I think I'm going to add them on my final stretch up to 500.

On a similar note Hellhammer are a must, but they only put out bloody EPs, which is annoying as I'd made a point of having only full-length studio albums.



Edited by Kingcrimsonprog - 14 May 2012 at 7:56am


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adg211288 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2012 at 8:08am
Still needs some Аркона for folk metal, IMO. This one I think is most popular: http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/arkona(russia)--%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B9-%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B5-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B9.aspx

By the way, typo in the Gamma Ray entry: You put Gama rather than Gamma. 

Could use some USPM I think. I'm not that well versed in it though. Maybe the others have some recommendations. I'd put forth Pharaoh for now:


Symphonic Death Metal is gradually getting more common currently. Maybe consider any of the following releases:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kingcrimsonprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2012 at 8:19am
Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

And also your argument that Metalcore/Nu Metal is as important than NWOBHM, Doom Metal and Black Metal because a bunch of kids who are new to Metal are into it is the equivalent of saying that Blink 182 are just as important to Punk Rock as the Sex Pistols, and even though I'm not much of an expert on Punk Rock, I know for a fact that's absolute bullshit.


On this point I'd just raise the old 'in the nu metal era, music sales were the highest in the history of the music business' argument that everyone uses to defend Nu Metal and the like.

Between Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Papa Roach, Korn, Coal Chamber  and Slipknot, the combined record sales are almost definitely bigger than every band in the Black Metal (or Doom Metal, excluding Black Sabbath for not being part of the actual Doom genre) genre's combined sales.

More people bough it. More people liked it.
Slipknot and Limp Bizkit sometimes play in front of more people per show than a black or doom band play in front of in an entire tour.

You can debate about the quality of the fans, sure. But at the end of the day, more human beings prefer this stuff to the more respectable stuff that elitists like. Silent majorities are still the majority.  And what better what to judge worth of inclusion by its relevance to people ?
What better way to judge relevance to people by the number of people it affects ?

Again, you can argue about the quality of the people, you might say they don't love the music properly, but that argument falls apart at least a bit when you hear someone like Terry Beezer go off in an impassioned defense of Limp Bizkit.


Think of it this way:
How many people would be listening to metal right now if Hair Metal, Nu Metal and Metalcore didn't exist ?
How many people would be going to see Emperor and St Vitus concerts if Hair Metal, Nu Metal and Metalcore didn't exist ?

The first band I ever bought tickets for was Limp Bizkit, the first show (Bizkit cancelled due to a back injury) I ever went to was Ozzfest with American Headcharge, System Of A Down, Drowning Pool, Otep and a bunch of other nu Metal bands. Some of the first ever CDs I bought were by Green Day and Slipknot.

Now I'm a Carpathian Forest, Zyklon, Sleep, Kreator & Judas Priest fan.
That story is pretty similar for every metal fan I've ever met my own age, for more than one of the writers at Metal Hammer magazine and for the next generation of Black, Doom and Death Metal bands.

Limp Bizkit are unfashionable, and perhaps even downright unlikable to some, but their contribution to the health of the metal scene is undeniable. Just like Poison in there day and Black Veil Brides or whatever other terrible band is doing it right now.

Metal needs gateway bands. To understand the holistic entirety of metal you need to understand the gateway bands. The list is a list of albums you need to understand to understand the holistic entirety of metal.



(Again, tone on the internet is hard. That is nothing but a calm, neutal-emotioned explanation of my decision rather than an argument or heated defense)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2012 at 9:04am
Originally posted by Kingcrimsonprog Kingcrimsonprog wrote:

Originally posted by IMPF2112 IMPF2112 wrote:

Also, the fact that you have two albums by Limp Bizkit on that list and none by Atheist or Cynic makes me wanna commit Seppuku or something.


Lol, both Athiest and Cynic are in there.

Yeah, I did some looking up, checking old lists and mag countdowns and there is definitely a case for those Bathory albums, I think I'm going to add them on my final stretch up to 500.

On a similar note Hellhammer are a must, but they only put out bloody EPs, which is annoying as I'd made a point of having only full-length studio albums.



Will Demon Entrails do? It's a compilation of their demos.
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