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Trial of the mass murderer in Oslo

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bartosso View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 4:18am
What's happening in Oslo and in Norway in general right now surprises me and terrifies me to an extent of sharing this concern with you. Something I don't do usually.

I have always admired Norway (and whole Scandinavia) for their highly civilized law and modern society, something I cannot say about my own homeland which is still ravaged by the war and most of all by communism that didn't let Polish people rebuild their country. Despite all that I learned to think that people are the same everywhere, most notably that Germans and Russians are not enemies but neighbors and that present generations are just innocent people and the vast majority of them want nothing but peace.

I used to think that prosperity helps people evolve, that people in highly civilized countries become wiser, they have time to relax, to read, to understand the world and the need of peace and progress towards global well-being.

Then I read about the crime in the web. Anders Breivik killed 77 people out of hate and irrational pride. Firstly I thought to myself - it's just an extremist, there's just a handful of those. But then I read statistics on number of visits on sites inciting to racial hatred in Norway and what I've seen was just incredible. I don't remember exact numbers but it's clear to me that I was very wrong about the prosperity being what people need to mentally evolve.

The case of Anders Breivik is dangerously similar to the one of Adolf Hitler. Both have created manifests and both committed crimes that sent them to court/jail. Then Hitler left the jail, was democratically elected in 1933 and then deprived all minorities (Jews, Romani people, homosexuals, mentally disabled, etc.)  of human rights. Lastly, he killed them. 

I know that Norwegian law respects human rights to an extent of respecting the rights of ones that deprived others of their basic human right - the right to live. I think it's admirable and should be a guiding light for other administrations of justice. Still, I just can't accept what's happening there. Letting people express their beliefs is one thing, but letting them to incite to racial hatred is another. There's a difference between "Tolerance" and "Consent to anything"

Okay, I think my tirade is already too long. What do you think about that trial? Do you think it's right to let Breivik express his hateful theories and treat them as equal to those of humanism and respect for the dignity of others? And finally what's your opinion on the overall mental condition of our modern societies?

By the way, I didn't mean to bash Norway, I think it's a problem that affects all European countries and the US as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 6:08am
First of all the Breivik case is terrible. A great tragedy that has ended the lives of 77 people and affected many more. Anyone who sympathize with his deeds arenīt a well functioning human being in my book. At least not human beings fit to live in a "Regular" European/US society.
 
...on the subject of freedom of speech I believe in almost unlimited freedom of speech. Iīm one of those who didnīt understand all the fuzz about the Mohammed drawings, just to use a controversial example. I understand the fear that someone like Breivik might inspire others to follow his way of thinking (and even worse acting), but if you censor free debate Iīm afraid itīll backfire on you at some point. Maybe someday something youīd like to talk about is censored. Just imagine the terrible feeling if that ever happened.
 
Education is still in my opinion the way forward to tolerance. The scars of the 2nd world war, even though it might seem distant for most people of our generation, are such a big part of European history, that most of the bigger European countries and maybe more importantly the populations of those countries will go to great length to avoid such a tragic situation again. While the statistics might show a great interest in sites that incite racial hatred, Iīm pretty sure itīs not a vast majority of the European populations who feel that way. On the other hand I also think large parts of the populations in most of the "originally" Christian countries are tired of what they feel are an unwillingness from the minority Muslim part of the population to integrate and respect the basic values (like freedom of speech, state over religion...and so forth) of the societies they live in. Thatīs a major conflict and unless we learn to understand and respect each other better (it goes both ways of course allthough I personally feel that people moving to a new country should make an effort to integrate), Breivik (and others)  might actually be right that we are heading towards a battle of religions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bartosso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 7:26am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

 
...on the subject of freedom of speech I believe in almost unlimited freedom of speech. Iīm one of those who didnīt understand all the fuzz about the Mohammed drawings, just to use a controversial example. I understand the fear that someone like Breivik might inspire others to follow his way of thinking (and even worse acting), but if you censor free debate Iīm afraid itīll backfire on you at some point. Maybe someday something youīd like to talk about is censored. Just imagine the terrible feeling if that ever happened.

Obviously I do agree with that. Censorship, or more generally forbidding anything, is a thing we should avoid at all costs. But once again, expressing beliefs that aim to limit freedom of other individuals or group of people cannot be tolerated, simply because it's harmful to these people. All the more so because his words are being heard all over the world, presenting him as a martyr of Christianity or whatnot.

Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Education is still in my opinion the way forward to tolerance. The scars of the 2nd world war, even though it might seem distant for most people of our generation, are such a big part of European history, that most of the bigger European countries and maybe more importantly the populations of those countries will go to great length to avoid such a tragic situation again. While the statistics might show a great interest in sites that incite racial hatred, Iīm pretty sure itīs not a vast majority of the European populations who feel that way. On the other hand I also think large parts of the populations in most of the "originally" Christian countries are tired of what they feel are an unwillingness from the minority Muslim part of the population to integrate and respect the basic values (like freedom of speech, state over religion...and so forth) of the societies they live in. Thatīs a major conflict and unless we learn to understand and respect each other better (it goes both ways of course allthough I personally feel that people moving to a new country should make an effort to integrate), Breivik (and others)  might actually be right that we are heading towards a battle of religions.

My thoughts exactly. Nobody is blameless (ok, atheists are LOL). 

I went to Auschwitz with a friend a few weeks ago and I've seen people watching all this with indifference, some of them even laughed. And taking photos in the crematorium like in a damn museum of contemporary art was kind of strange to me as well. Maybe that's why I'm so pessimistic about all that's happening.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 9:45am
Yeah Iīve heard visiting Auschwitz can be a really unpleasant experience. The thought of what happened there is sickening to say the least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCVP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 2:51pm
Just my two cents here: 

Even though I think what happened was deplorable and Breivik has to suffer the harsher sort of punishment available in Norway (which is still kind of light IMO), he does have a point as to Europe having a problem/crisis with minorities population-wise (if I recall correctly, in France both Marseilles' and  Paris' metropolitan population is mostly composed by non-french people), but specially regarding criminality/offences against human life. 

In Norway , crimes such as rape and homicide are on the rise today after decades of being nearly eradicated and the nearly 95% of the culprits are first or second generation immigrants from Africa or the Middle East, the main targets of Breivik's abhorrent killing spree. And he isn't the only one that think that the solution is to mass murder the immigrants he just decided to take matters with his own hands, which (IMO) shows that something is on the rise (some right-wing party just got a tenth of the total seats in Sweden's Parliament) and, coupled with the economic crisis in the Eurozone, I just hope things don't get ugly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bartosso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 4:20pm
Yeah, that is all true but still the vast majority of these islamic and african people want nothing but to live in peace and with dignity in a better place than their homelands. The innocent are always the most harmed when people try to fix problems with violence. 

I absolutely understand Norway's frustration, but it was the government chosen by the people that allowed immigrants to come in great numbers so now it's government's role to cope with it without harming innocent people. 

By the way, if Norway (and all other rich countries like France and Germany) didn't need immigrants, they wouldn't allow them to come. They need young people and their children to protect their countries from demographic crisis. People seem to overlook that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CCVP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2012 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by bartosso bartosso wrote:

Yeah, that is all true but still the vast majority of these islamic and african people want nothing but to live in peace and with dignity in a better place than their homelands. The innocent are always the most harmed when people try to fix problems with violence. 

Quite true.

I absolutely understand Norway's frustration, but it was the government chosen by the people that allowed immigrants to come in great numbers so now it's government's role to cope with it without harming innocent people. 

By the way, if Norway (and all other rich countries like France and Germany) didn't need immigrants, they wouldn't allow them to come. They need young people and their children to protect their countries from demographic crisis. People seem to overlook that.

Wouldn't it be easier to do like Russia and offer subsidies for women with children? Russia managed to rise their fertility rate about 0.5 that way in 5 years or so; it is still quite low, around 1.5 children per woman, but was about 1 child per woman in the early 2000's. Immigration solves these problems quite short-sightly IMO because of three things that do happen in the long run:

1 - The government will have to support and educate them as well and these are even more expenses;
2 - a considerable part of the immigrants spend most of their time in the hosting country unemployed, what makes any argument favoring immigration based on "we need people to support us, etc" void;
3 - Many do not integrate with the community and consequently create ghettos and isolate themselves, what causes a variety of more serious problems, such as violence, mass unemployment for second and third generations, etc. 

I believe the EU countries are currently discussing what to do now because many have realized that multiculturalism and integration between themselves and "alien" cultures have failed, possibly due to the problems on # 3.

There are other solutions to the population problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bartosso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 4:51am
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Wouldn't it be easier to do like Russia and offer subsidies for women with children? Russia managed to rise their fertility rate about 0.5 that way in 5 years or so; it is still quite low, around 1.5 children per woman, but was about 1 child per woman in the early 2000's.

No. Demographic crisis in Russia has a different basis than the one in EU. Russians are poor, hence they don't have children. Meanwhile in the EU the crisis is caused by changes in mentality. The reason underlying these changes is consumerism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Balthamel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2012 at 5:25pm
ive been watching the trial now on TV, and the details that are revield are horrible, i think it is okey that they let him talk, the trial is partly him telling of his crime, and partly for the psychiatris to decide if he is what we in norway call strefferetslig tilregnelig (is he sane enough to be punished or to be sent to a locked asylum) i think he will get both, a 21+ sentnced, that he will get maximum punishment and added 5 years adter each of the cerved 21, (called forvaring)

an example of that is Varg Vikernes who was sentenced a 18-21 years sentce for murder and arcenist (church burning) after he's cerved 18 years he was denied probail beocuse the court did not find he could walk as a free man, he had to searc for it 5 or 6 times before he was denied out (or something


I still have not gotten quite over what happedn in july, it is stil printed in my memory, i was numb in my hole body for two weeks in shock afterwards
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Balthamel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2012 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DefinitionOfHatred Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2012 at 12:04pm

I know I'm not exactly following the spirit of the conversation here, but there's something that hasn't quite been well understood by most IMO and that should be clarified.

Most people are assuming his behaviour was the one of a psychopath (which in some way makes sense - cold attitude, supposed loneliness, background of rejection, etc.), but the most adequate term for his actions is fanatism. I'm not saying that he isn't mentally affected. He may suffer from mental diseases. However, considering that the reason for his violent act was CLEARLY the one of making a political stand (he made a huge manifesto just for the sake of making that clear), it's pretty obvious that he commited the attacks not due to disease but due to beliefs. The scariest part (that many people can't see 'cause they're convinced he did this because he's a psycho) is that he SHARES these beliefs with many people from all around Europe and even the United States. Missing the point in his actions may be missing the point in a whole new wave in politics.
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