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The Beatles (Proto-Metal)

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Purple Haze View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 2:43pm
Hello my Metal Maniacs Friends
I think Beatles are absolutely "must" to be added on MMA.
"Revolver", "White Album", "Abbey Road" albums were really important and influential for the genre.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2019 at 9:09pm
I think they were influential for EVERY genre actually :)

Not sure if they've ever been considered here. They do have heavy songs like Helter Skelter but i don't think any of their albums have enough heavy tracks to qualify IMHO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 8:40am
Yes Puppy it's really difficult if talking abound the bands from 60's if we can qualify them to proto-metal or non metal genre. But i see that The Kinks are here so why not The Beatles... Just my opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 10:15am
The funny thing with The Kinks everything past their first three albums is labeled as "non-metal" and that's accurate. They also have a huge catalog. In my opinion, the Kinks main contributions to birthing metal are the two early singles we all know plus the less known but awesome b-side of the era "I Need You." The rest of their catalog I love for the most part, but has nothing to do with metal.

So yes, if The Kinks are in, by proto-metal standards, The Beatles should be in for "Helter Skelter" and "I Want You (She's So Heavy)." The latter has a closing riff that could be on Black Sabbath VOL. 4 as far as I'm concerned.

Interestingly enough, in his biography, Paul McCartney himself feels the drum beat in "Ticket to Ride" helped invent heavy metal. While I don't agree with that, just some food for thought.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vim Fuego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 11:53am
Just... no.

I've seen this revisionist push for The Beatles to be considered "proto-metal" and "proto-punk" all over the place. It's grasping, pushing, stretching, and overreaching far too far. The Beatles were plenty of things, but proto-metal? No.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 3:06pm
Vim if it's "no" from You for The Beatles, can You explain to me why there's a 'yes" for the Kinks on the website. I totally agree with Metaldams. The Kinks main contributions to birthing metal are the two early singles - nothing else... and they are exist on MMA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vim Fuego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 3:34pm
No, I can't explain it. It's not one of the genres I deal with here, and I wasn't privy to the decision to add them.

If you want to know anything about grindcore however, I can help you out with that.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 4:52pm
If I were doing it, I would just label the entire early catalog non-metal and from The White Album on go proto-metal. That way, we're giving nod to the influence but not counting them as a major player in metal. It is a stretch, admittedly, but we're talking sixties here and something has to be the least heaviest thing on the site. May as well be the most influential band ever who had a few metal moments and influenced a ton of metal bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:41pm
metaldams - again - i'm definitely agree with You.
so dearest admins and colabs please accept it :)) last Beatles albums deserves to be here

P.S. I am very happy that my first post on MMA is such a hot discussion :)) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:44pm
The Beatles are great in my opinion, but I wouldn't consider them eligible for a site like this. While they do have proto-metal songs like Helter Skelter and I Want You (the latter of which even helped invent doom metal!), the problem is that they don't have a full album that explores this. I believe the guideline is that an album has to be at least 50% of a specific metal genre to count for its inclusion. I myself have been guilty of adding some fringe bands in the past - especially Manic Street Preachers - but at least that band had a very clear hard rock and metal influence over the course of their entire first three albums. And I felt that was worthy enough to include them, which was eventually agreed upon.

Don't get me wrong here: The Beatles definitely have a place in metal history. As with many other genres, heavy metal wouldn't have been the same without their existence and impact. But to be honest, hard rock and proto-metal just weren't a dominant part of their overall sound. Other bands at the time, such as Budgie or Blue Cheer, fleshed these elements out a lot more. If we were trying to put The Beatles on here for a song like Helter Skelter, then we'd have to put their entire White Album under that proto-metal label. And that just seems dishonest to me.

I don't think I have the ultimate authority to turn this one down, since I'm not a proto-metal-specific collaborator, but if my input counts at all here, I'm gonna have to say no. Just my two cents anyway. Wink

PS: I don't think the Kinks should be on here either. Smile


Edited by Necrotica - 01 Apr 2019 at 5:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purple Haze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 5:55pm
Necrotica i think that in this situation it should be a very clear and strict regulations.
What about for example then with Dick Dale? I understand that he was named as a King Of Surf Guitar etc. but... please... common... After that then we should agreed for Beach Boys then... :)))

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Purple Haze Purple Haze wrote:

Vim if it's "no" from You for The Beatles, can You explain to me why there's a 'yes" for the Kinks on the website. I totally agree with Metaldams. The Kinks main contributions to birthing metal are the two early singles - nothing else... and they are exist on MMA.

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I think i can explain. Personally i wouldn't be sad if the Kinks weren't here at all BUT they are probably here because they were the first band to crank up the distortion and had a major influence on metal bands like Van Halen for example in much the same way Venom sort of launched extreme metal by accident. While the Kinks are hardly metal or punk they still get cited by both for having a certain DIY attitude along with a crafty disregard for the conventional norms that kept many other garage bands from developing. 

 True they went the pop route fairly quickly but You Really Got Me and Paranoia were very much the launching pad for heavier distortion in music therefore they get a special pass i would guess for this sole contribution. The Beatles on the other hand had a greater hand in developing prog and only a scant few songs that could pass as proto metal like Helter Skelter. I just don't think they qualify otherwise we'd have to add every garage band from the 60s like the Troggs or the Sonics who would be more qualified.

Proto is a special case by case basis that doesn't make complete sense but reserved for bands that had more influence than others. Same with hard rock. Personally i don't want the Beatles here even though they are one of my favorite bands of all time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:42pm
I see the argument you guys are making and I get the point. It is true The Beatles didn't have close to a half album worth of metal. I would argue "Helter Skelter" is ahead of those early Kinks singles, but The Kinks did it in 1964 and by 1968, yes the World had Blue Cheer, fair point.

The proto metal thing is hard to figure out because there were so many artists that had brief moments of metal but were never metal. The heaviest song of the 60's to me is from The Pretty Things, "Old Man Going." From 1968 and the riff reminds me of "Leaving Nadir" from Witchfynde (see link below).   But if we're going for more consistency, I get the point with The Beatles - then again....their level of influence is so insane you can argue a special exception.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mg5t7T5_rR8

Shit, while on proto metal, I'd argue if the only album David Bowie ever made was THE MAN WHO SOLD THE WORLD, he's be on every obscure early metal list. It's the rest of the career that stops that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:53pm
I completely agree with The Man Who Sold the World being proto-metal. I reviewed that album last year on Sputnik, and I was really surprised by the fantastic mix of heavy metal and glam rock it had. Almost like an early precursor to Queen's 70s work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 6:55pm
Link Wray is on here too. Oh fuck it. Just add everyone!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metaldams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Link Wray is on here too. Oh fuck it. Just add everyone!!!!


I didn't realize he was until you mentioned it. He's gotta be the oldest artist.

Hey, as long as the term "proto" is put in to differentiate between Morbid Angel and their place is properly explained, I'm cool with it on older artists. Metal was festering well before Iommi had a work accident, it just took him to consolidate it. Births of most cultural movements are complicated, that's what makes it fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Necrotica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 7:19pm
lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue

Agreed. I guess someone decided that Wray and the Kinks were fundamental in the evolution of metal and everyone else like The Beatles were just following in their footsteps for a few tracks at least. 

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.

For the most part, the inclusions on this site are fairly right on. Of course a few stinkers fall through the cracks. Skinny Puppy was once here once but rightfully deleted so no guarantee that any of these including the Kinks will remain but personally i can see why the Kinks are here at least.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vim Fuego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

lol, I didn't realize Link Wray's on the site. I'm not sure I agree with that inclusion Tongue

Agreed. I guess someone decided that Wray and the Kinks were fundamental in the evolution of metal and everyone else like The Beatles were just following in their footsteps for a few tracks at least. 

We need to remember that this IS a metal site after all and that all these fringe extras are selected for different reasons that someone deemed relevant. Personally i've never heard a Link Wray song that i considered metal but i'm not on expert on his music by any means, only heard a greatest hits or two.

For the most part, the inclusions on this site are fairly right on. Of course a few stinkers fall through the cracks. Skinny Puppy was once here once but rightfully deleted so no guarantee that any of these including the Kinks will remain but personally i can see why the Kinks are here at least.

I'd still argue the Skinny Puppy one myself, but I'll let it lie...Ouch

And anyway, if we added The Beatles, that would be a fucking HUGE job! Number of entries on Discogs: 1 – 25 of 1,371!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vim Fuego Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2019 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Purple Haze Purple Haze wrote:

metaldams - again - i'm definitely agree with You.
so dearest admins and colabs please accept it :)) last Beatles albums deserves to be here

P.S. I am very happy that my first post on MMA is such a hot discussion :)) 

Long Live Rock'n'Roll
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It's good to get a bit of discussion going here.Clap
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