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cannon View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Glad you're enjoying the thread - feel free to bring in any artists you feel should have some spotlight time.
 
Obviously, I'm trying to get an alphabetical thing going on - but since I started this thread, I've discovered quite a few more in the A-C range - I'm wondering when I'll get to D, or IF I'll ever get to Z at this rate!
 
As for AFICW, I'll go back and listen again (always a pleasure!), but what I meant was that I could hear more of what I would describe as proto metal on the second - the debut does indeed rock harder, but to my hears it's "purer" heavy  blues rock, with fewer metallic overtones.  I've stuck a few tracks from the debut below - it's still perfectly valid proto metal, but there's a bit more "swing" than swagger - and too many strings for my taste!
 
As you say, much is in the vein of Hammond-driven rock - and while I've already discovered Atilla, to my utmost amazement, proving that Hammonds can do metal, to my ears that really is an exception.
 
Where the second rocks, especially in "Coming of Love pt 2", there's metal in them thar riffs!
 
 
It's tricky to state with accuracy or with any kind of scientific measurements the difference between hard rock and metal - but I have deliberately missed out quite a few bands that appear on others' proto-metal lists, and included several that don't.
 
I think that proto metal isn't just any old hard rock act, and in some cases, even a really heavy sound isn't the convincing factor:
 
In one or two notable cases, like Coven, for instance, some proto metal acts have a decidedly non heavy sound, and would never have got within an inch of this site based on the music alone - the proto metal aspects are entirely in the image and band attitudes. Really, you can't get much more metal than a band of satanists who use the devil's horn hand symbol and write songs with titles like "Black Sabbath", before Sabbath came into being. Even the bass player's name - John Osbourne - reminds me of a decidedly metallic band...
 
Sir Lord Baltimore, on the other hand, I have serious doubts about - it doesn't matter how heavy the sound is, heavy metal is a two-word phrase.
 
...and trust me, if The Heavy Metal Kids were called anything else, I would not have added them.
 
Now, where did I put my copy of AFICW's debut? Wink
 
 
 
 
 
 
I couldn't agree more with your statement on Coven. I remember picking up thier first album 25 years ago and I was just uterly disappointed. I had huge expectations that this album would be "heavy". Psych pop/spoken word. To justify, I must not have thier right album so I picked up thier second. More harder rock...somewhat, a "metallic" sound. Still wasn't what I was expecting. Blood On The Snow was next on the list. A tad more heavy. But heavy metal, hell no.
 
Black Widow's Sacrifice is another I lump into the same catagory as Coven. Heavy, but not heavy.
 
Now if we're talking heavy metal is the context of the devil, the image and attitude then Coven would be me on list also as would Satan's right hand man would be also. Anton Lavey(Church of Satan) released a spoken word album in 1968, The Satanic Mass.
 
 
As far as your assessment on AFIC's first two albums I would agree for the most part. Again it comes down to one's own personal criteria on what is proto-metal and hard rock, heavy psych, hard blues rock. IMO alot it is "crossover" on a sub-genre level. Many factors usually are included in one's criteria and to say, "that band shouldn't be on the list" is well...entirely one's own opinion. That's what makes list 'fun".
 
 
For me, I have no doubts on Sir Lord Baltimore. One of the definitive proto-metal bands.
 
 
 
 
 
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Here's one of the best dual guitar interplay albums I've heard. Cargo from the Netherlands with thier s/t debut from 1972. It's not proto-metal IMO but heavy/hard progressive rock. Now here's a perfect example why we need a Heavy Rock Sub-genre. I paid big bucks for this piece of vinyl 15 years ago. Wah wahs waging war in extended jams. Holy smokes.

 
 
^^^All 4 original tracks. I did eventually p/u the CD reissue with the bonus tracks. All of them not very good. Well maybe two.
 
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Charge out of the UK and fronted by bassist Ric Grech who was in the "supergroup" Blind Faith and played on Family's first two great releases(Music In A Doll's House, Family Entertainment) and also with Ginger Baker's Airforce, KGB and Traffic teamed up with guitarist Neil Hubbard(Joe Cocker's Grease Band, Juicy Lucy, Kokomo), bassist Alan Spenner(Joe Cocker's Grease Band, Spooky Tooth, Kokomo, Roxy Music), and Chris Mercer(John Mayall, Wynder K. Frog) released thier only LP, s/t in 1973 consisting of some wicked guitar and a doom laden ambience. Very obscure and was very fortunate it to find at a record swap meet and transferred to it CD-R using my Yamaha CD recorder. Proto-metal.? I think so.

 
 
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Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 
Now if we're talking heavy metal is the context of the devil, the image and attitude then Coven would be me on list also as would Satan's right hand man would be also. Anton Lavey(Church of Satan) released a spoken word album in 1968, The Satanic Mass.
 
 
Satanic / Black masses seemed to be all the rage among a certain set in the very late 1960s - White Noise did one called "Black Mass / Electric Storm in Hell" (1969);
 
 
...and there's an epic and very scary single from a truly wierd band called Jason Crest which is well worth a listen for the screaming alone - there are loads more examples of such "masses" (1969).
 
 
The things that really stand out about Coven are almost entirely peripheral; The album sleeve is deeply Satanic - very metal. Their use of the Devil's horns hand gesture, so beloved of Ronnie James Dio et al is intrinsic to the genre. One of their songs is called Black Sabbath - and they have a musician called John "Oz" Osbourne. When you consider that the album was released before Sabbath's debut... I know Sabbath's name was allegedly inspired by the film of the same name but... Wink
 
Same thing goes for Screaming Lord Sutch - none of his music is particularly metal, but he did have the horror theatricality and ambiences in his music - not to mention the (Largely awful) work with Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck et al in the early 1970s. That theatricality was a direct influence on Alice Cooper, not to mention a load of wierd bands from the Netherlands who really got into this horror rock.
 
Then there's surf music.
 
Some of the links to metal from this anti-metallic genre are horrifyingly strong - one of my favourites (as a link - there are far better surf tunes) is a tune called "Satan's Holiday", based on Grieg's "Peer Gynt" (the predictable "Hall Of The Mountain King), by a band called The Lancasters, featuring a very young Ritchie Blackmore (1965);
 
 
The roots of metal lie in peculiar places LOL


Edited by Certif1ed - 06 Jun 2011 at 4:38pm
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^^^Great post Certif!edClap
 
Two great vids. Haven't heard of either artist. The late '60's seemed to of spawned a Satanic worship onslaught with experimentation of drugs, the foundation of the Church of Satan, Charlie Manson, and probably boredom of some from the counter-culture and maybe even the Vietnam war. TBH, I don't know much about the subject and the era together.
 
For the most part I can't disagree with you on Coven. Screaming Lord Sutch on the other hand is just awful. I remember buying a new copy based on Page, Beck and others being invovled and the cover. I was about 17 years old at that time. That explains that. An image IMO doesn't make music though I would say descent music with imagery can have an influence but in some cases it can be ridiculous and actually be counter productive to what the artist is trying to achieve.
 
 I've noticed Black Widow isn't in the archives. Any reason for that? Just curious. Myself, I'm on the fence.
 
Been an instrumental surf fan for years. The Ventures, The Surfaris, Dick Dale, The Trashmen, The Chantays, The Marketts, and the Challengers and even the surf punk/revival of the early '90's. Man Or Astro-man? is just friggin' fun.Approve Beach Boys don't work for me. Too poppy.
 
No denying the impact surf rock has had on rock in general and in metal with some of it's innovative players and equipment.
 
I think I will pull out a piece of surf vinyl over the next day or two. So much to listen, so little time. Well...That's not true, I have lots time of my hands right and what I see in the near future. At least I'm being somewhat constructive contributing here at MMA.Cool
 
 
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Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

^^^Great post Certif!edClap
 
Two great vids. Haven't heard of either artist.
 
I recommend you find a copy of "An Electric Storm" by White Noise - it's possibly THE most amazing album of the 1960s. It features electronic music supremess Delia Derbyshire (who realised Ron Grainer's orchestral score into electronics and produced the first Dr Who theme tune in 1963 - that riff is the heart of much metal, methinks!).
 
 
Every song on "An Electric Storm" is a sublime masterpiece, with the possible exception of "Here Come the Fleas". The first song, "Love WIthout Sound" is trip hop, long before people in the 1990s thought they invented it.
 
 
Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 
For the most part I can't disagree with you on Coven. Screaming Lord Sutch on the other hand is just awful. I remember buying a new copy based on Page, Beck and others being invovled and the cover. I was about 17 years old at that time.
 
Sutch did a lot more before the abysmal "Heavy Friends" album - most is just funny. His most famous is probably Jack The Ripper, but other titles like "Dracula's Daughter" and "Murder in the Graveyard", which are equally awful as songs, but just the right attitude that would lead to the horror obsessed side of metal;
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

An image IMO doesn't make music though I would say descent music with imagery can have an influence but in some cases it can be ridiculous and actually be counter productive to what the artist is trying to achieve.
 
I think that image is a very important part - no, it doesn't make music, but the wrong image can be responsible for great music failing to see the light of day - and this has been the case at least since Elvis.
 
Where would Maiden be without Eddie? Motorhead without the warts? AC/DC without Angus?
 
Gimmicks and imagery are not the be-all and end-all, but Coven are in a class of their own, since everything about them except the music made it into mainstream metal. They did, to their credit, become much heavier later on in their career.
 
Likewise, Sutch was the leader of the horror rock field with his theatricality, wild laughter and screaming, of course - and plenty more horror/sci-fi oriented came from the amazing stable of Joe Meek;
 
 
- we're back to Surf music again!
 
It wasn't a new thing either - I haven't traced it right back, but there's this from 1958;
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 I've noticed Black Widow isn't in the archives. Any reason for that? Just curious. Myself, I'm on the fence.
 
Curious - I thought they were, but I've noticed that some bands don't seem to show when you do a search at the moment - I'm investigating this. 
 
 
 
Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 
No denying the impact surf rock has had on rock in general and in metal with some of it's innovative players and equipment.
 
 
...like Dick Dale... Wink
 
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There is a band called "Black Widows" in the archive, but as they are 90s gothic metal from Portugal I doubt they are who you are talking about.
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 
Now if we're talking heavy metal is the context of the devil, the image and attitude then Coven would be me on list also as would Satan's right hand man would be also. Anton Lavey(Church of Satan) released a spoken word album in 1968, The Satanic Mass.
 
 
Satanic / Black masses seemed to be all the rage among a certain set in the very late 1960s - White Noise did one called "Black Mass / Electric Storm in Hell" (1969);
 
 
...and there's an epic and very scary single from a truly wierd band called Jason Crest which is well worth a listen for the screaming alone - there are loads more examples of such "masses" (1969).
 
 
The things that really stand out about Coven are almost entirely peripheral; The album sleeve is deeply Satanic - very metal. Their use of the Devil's horns hand gesture, so beloved of Ronnie James Dio et al is intrinsic to the genre. One of their songs is called Black Sabbath - and they have a musician called John "Oz" Osbourne. When you consider that the album was released before Sabbath's debut... I know Sabbath's name was allegedly inspired by the film of the same name but... Wink
 
Same thing goes for Screaming Lord Sutch - none of his music is particularly metal, but he did have the horror theatricality and ambiences in his music - not to mention the (Largely awful) work with Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck et al in the early 1970s. That theatricality was a direct influence on Alice Cooper, not to mention a load of wierd bands from the Netherlands who really got into this horror rock.
 
Then there's surf music.
 
Some of the links to metal from this anti-metallic genre are horrifyingly strong - one of my favourites (as a link - there are far better surf tunes) is a tune called "Satan's Holiday", based on Grieg's "Peer Gynt" (the predictable "Hall Of The Mountain King), by a band called The Lancasters, featuring a very young Ritchie Blackmore (1965);
 
 
The roots of metal lie in peculiar places LOL
 
 I D/L White Noise this morning. You're couple of vids you posted really caught my ears. These guys got passed me somehow. Will listen to it sometime today.
 
Should I place Black Widow in the archives? Gave 'er a listen this morning. I think they belong. More than the "Lord" that's for sure.LOL Just kiddin' Mark.
 
The Beach Boys can be connected also if one likes. I can't remember the couple of songs I read about many years ago that the author claimed the influence. Again, where does one draw the line as the bucket becomes very big.
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I think "influence" should be treated with a pinch of salt - after all, Martha and the Vandellas "influenced" Van Halen (Dancing in The Streets), as did Frank Sinatra (That's Life) and the Nashville Teens - and Elvis, Chuck Berry, the Rolling Stones - as it gets closer to the "birth" of metal in either Sabbath or Priest, depending which camp you're in, it gets harder to separate influence on the genre from actual proto material.
 
To my mind, proto metal doesn't have to be 100% metal, but there HAS to be aspects of it which are 100%. Metal is a very committed form of music - few genres have such passionate fans or are excluded as a genre from people's playlists or musical tastes so regularly - it really splits opinion properly.
 
So there's absolutely nothing about the Beach Boys that is 100% metal, but Sutch? Just watch the "Jack The Ripper" video - he's really going out and out to scare people and make them believe he's from the dark side. He looks a proper twat doing it, but he's 100% dedicated to his cause. Rock on, Dave!
 
I wouldn't necessarily add any of the other horror music acts from that time - it's good to know that there was so much music in that genre promoting the dark side; I've been doing some research into the matter, and there was an interesting book published in 1967, the year before Anton Lavey's recorded work, which may have been inspirational, given the co-incidental time it was circulated. I'm just curious as to what gave rise to heavy metal music in the first place - and there are a LOT of strands to follow back!
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Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 
Should I place Black Widow in the archives? Gave 'er a listen this morning. I think they belong.  
 
The only song of theirs I really remember is "Sacrifice" - which is pretty rockin' - I seem to recall the rest of their stuff was somewhat like Santana - but that's nearly an anagram of Satan - so add 'em I say!
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Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by cannon cannon wrote:

 
Should I place Black Widow in the archives? Gave 'er a listen this morning. I think they belong.  
 
The only song of theirs I really remember is "Sacrifice" - which is pretty rockin' - I seem to recall the rest of their stuff was somewhat like Santana - but that's nearly an anagram of Satan - so add 'em I say!
 
 Archived!Cool
 
Progressive hard rock/psych/folk what is contained on the album. "Sacrifice", "Ancient Days" and "Come To The Sabbath" are all heavy tracks in ambience, musically and lyrical. I must say I really enjoyed listening to the album. For thier other albums, I haven't heard them. Probably similar in vien.
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Continuing with C. Charlies out of Finland released two albums. Thier first is in Finnish and I'm not about to try to write it out. It is more of a hard blues/psych jam but is thier second release, Buttocks, is a blazing hard/prog/acid/psych trip and even a touch of jazz/folk similar to that of Jethro Tull. Smoking leads. Considering it for the archives. Have a listen.
 
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I initially rejected them as bordeline, and listening again, I'm enjoying the music but still not convinced.
 
If we had a Hard Rock category, or if the band get support from others, then there'd be no question.
 
They still get a "no" from me, I'm afraid - although it's more of a "not quite".
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It's close. It's a thin line sometimes. No doubt they would fit in the proposed heavy rock sub-genre. What do ya think about Atomic Rooster? There must be a reason why they're not here(?). Too prog? I've listened to to thier first three albums over the last day or so. My call would be to have them included.
 
Man, it's alot of time, work and research updating info (releases, musician line-ups, etc.). I have a new appreciation for data bases of music. I've used PA for the last 5 years and didn't really think too much about it. Ya, I took it for granted. I don't now.Thumbs Up
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Here's a one-single wonder (don't think it was ever a hit!) by the unlikely named Chook - Australian for chicken, I believe.
 
Bassist Ian Ryan went on to play with Buster Brown, and their one and only single was released on the collectable Havoc label, renowed for high quality recordings and vinyl compounds, mostly of hard rock acts, it seems. Other bands that had releases on the label include Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs, and Coloured Balls, who released an album entitled "Heavy Metal Kids".
 
Here's Chook's single - it's awesome to have an actual video from the time - enjoy, and mind your head on your computer screen!!!
 
***Kickass stuff warning***
 
 


Edited by Certif1ed - 09 Jun 2011 at 2:22am
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Led by vocalist/guitarist Stan "The Man" Webb, Chicken Shack evolved in the second wave of the of the British blues revival influenced by the one of the unheralded Chicago blues great, Freddie King. After numerous line up changes from thier first four albums and Christine Perfect(McVie) leaving for Fleetwood Mac Webb formed a power trio and released Imagination Lady from 1972 leaving the tradtional blues-rock behind and laying down a raw, heavy blues rock/hard rock slab with him stamping on his wah-wah, torrent leads, Sabbath-esque riffs and fitting perfect with his gruff, raspy whiskey drinkin'  vocals.
 
Sadly the next album Poor Boy slide away from the sound of Imagination Lady and added horns ina similar style to that of Savoy Brown's Raw Sienna. Imagination Lady just might of been Webbs response to the 'Hog's Split.
 
Proto-metal? Good question. However a classic in the heavy psych/hard rock/blues rock arena.
 
 


Edited by cannon - 14 Jun 2011 at 2:10am
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This band, High Tide, is definitely worth noting. They are (debatably) the first to use both metal and progressive influences, making them to some degree "grandfathers of progressive metal".



I wonder how much of the metal sound is just poor production LOL.
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Just had to share this one - Aynsley Dunbar Retalliation's orignal version of "The Warning", as covered by Black Sabbath on their debut;
 
 
 
It has to be said that this is about the only proto-metal in Dunbar's back catalogue - but nonetheless, he has a most impressive CV and collection of recordings, including Zappa covers (he did a stint in Zappa's band) and haunting blues - an awesome drummer who's worked with some incredible musicians and created some amazing music.
 
It's said that Hendrix had a hard job choosing between him and Mitchell, and that he tried to recruit Robert Fripp as guitarist - then turned Fripp down when he tried to hire Dunbar into King Crimson.
 
Another metal oriented taster;
 
 
As I said, most of his other material isn't metallic - but check it out anyway - you won't be disappointed!
 
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^^^^Great blues-rock.Clap 
 
Didn't Sabbath not give credit to Dunbar for the Warning on thier s/t debut?  I've seen compilations where they have. At least they gave some of the members of Crow credit for "Evil Woman" on the original UK gatefold album(different track listing than NA release).
 
After Wicked Lady dissloved, Martin Weaver joined the UK band the Dark and issued one album, Round The Edges from 1972. Unlike Wicked Lady, the production on this album is very good. Fantastic melodic prog/heavy psych/hard rock(proto-metal) with some tracks drenched in fuzz. With only a couple of hundred LPs released the vinyl has been sold at four figure prices. Again with the birth of the digital age this obscure album would of remained obscured and unavailable to most listeners. I p/u the CD on the UK label, Kissing Spell about 20 years ago.
 
 
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^Zero Time is my favourite track from that Dark album - very good song! http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/dark.aspx?ac=Dark
 
Dunbar does indeed get credit on the Sabbath debut - I'm looking at my First Press copy of the vinyl, and it's right in the middle of the cross when you open the gatefold, under the credits to the composers of Evil Woman - Wiegend, Wiegend, Waggoner (aka Crow, as you correctly point out) http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/crow.aspx?ac=crow
 
"Evil Woman (Don't You Play Your Games With Me)" is not the same song as the one Larry "Rheinstone Cowboy" Reiss wrote for Spooky Tooth, covered ably by Quiet Riot with Glenn Hughes manning the mic, which features the same riff that Sabbath used for "Sweet Leaf";
 
 
 
...nor is it the song by ELO... but we won't go there!
 
(I know you didn't claim it was, but I just wanted an excuse to post another song from that awesome Spooky Tooth album!).


Edited by Certif1ed - 27 Jun 2011 at 3:03pm
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