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Certif1ed 
MMA Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 29 Mar 2010 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 473 |
 Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 12:14am |
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^I've never seen any direct reference to this in documents of the time, but from the late 1970s onwards there are plenty of published articles which refer to Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, etc. as the earliest heavy metal bands - which doesn't stop them being hard rock, heavy rock and progressive rock as well... those were highly creative and formative times!
The earliest reference to Heavy Metal in a musical context has precious little to do with what people call Heavy Metal now - it's a fantastic, constantly evolving genre, so it's wrong to say that (insert band name here) is NOT Heavy Metal - unless they're not, of course...
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Andyman1125
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 2068 |
Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 8:50pm |
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^ Well they were "heavy metal" in the 70s, so they kind of need to be here
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Triceratopsoil
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 17 Dec 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4197 |
Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 7:33pm |
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well wtf are Led Zeppelin doing here then? Get rid of em!
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harmonium.ro
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Location: Paris Status: Offline Points: 141 |
Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 8:15am |
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Agreed. The debut contains proto-metal, and Red & LTIA contain a unique form of classic 70s metal. The last era also has quite some prog-metal.
That applies better to Led Zep, who are already here. |
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Certif1ed
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 29 Mar 2010 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 473 |
Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 2:44am |
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^Depends on your point of view.
In the late 1970s, Rush WERE Progressive Metal - there was not much else that was. There was no "proto" about Rush - they were considered metal - not sure why history is being re-written!
With Crimson, however, the proto case is easier to make; Taking "ITCoTCK" as the prime example, then comparing it to later metal albums with slower and more atmospheric content, it's pretty cut and dried as proto-metal (we don't have a proto progressive metal category, or that's where that album would be);
The case for 21st Century Schizoid Man is closed, the title track is massive, epic, and doomy. It's not full-on metal, but that's the point of "proto". MoonChild is avante garde playing so "out there" that few people I've come across can actually appreciate what Crimson were doing - here's a hint - there's little that's truly random about it.
There are many technical and "progressive" metal bands that have tried to push into this kind of direction, but, to the best of my knowledge, Crimson remain the only rock band that have truly broken into the realms of musical expression in such an abstract, yet intelligent, logical and artistically creative way.
So that's 3 out of 5. Admittedly, the other two fall short in terms of metal - but I think that the importance of the 3 I mentioned are too vital to overlook (although I'd guess most won't see the MoonChild connection).
The other albums all need to be weighed up - but I think that Crimson's back catalogue is of interest to most people who like metal, so my vote is add them! Edited by Certif1ed - 19 Jan 2011 at 2:48am |
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Andyman1125
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 2068 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 1:23pm |
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Yea, that's the case with Rush.... all the pre 80s albums are proto-metal, then with Counterparts it switched to alt metal... because it was at that point.
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UMUR
MMA Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team / Retired Admin Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 18113 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 1:07pm |
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Some albums like Red, Larks Tongues and and maybe the debut could be tagged proto-metal but that�s entirely up to the proto team to decide. Personally I�m biased as King Crimson arguably don�t have one album that through and through could be called "metal". On the other side they�ve been a great influence on metal and especially progressive metal so that might speak in their favour. Proto-metal acts aren�t per definition "metal" acts. They came before metal and influenced the genre if I understand the definition correctly. But that would also mean that you can�t label their 80s or later albums with the proto tag. They would be tagged non-metal.
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rushfan4
MMA Special Collaborator
Errors and Omissions Team Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 7485 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 12:54pm |
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It would really be difficult to tag any of their albums as metal. But it would be a shame not to include them because arguably 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first progressive metal song plus a smattering of other songs spread throughout their discography are also metal.
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Stooge
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator/Retired Admin Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Whitby, ON, CAN Status: Offline Points: 5637 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 12:46pm |
I'd imagine if KC are added to MMA, only some of their pr-80s work would be tagged proto. In my opinion, their 80s material isn't metal at all, but some songs on Thrak and later albums could be considered metal, but would most likely be tagged non-metal as a whole. |
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Andyman1125
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 2068 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 12:37pm |
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I think more than just 4 or 5 songs are "metal." Yes, many of their songs are ballads, but most bands have ballads. Look at CMX's discography. They have 1 metal album out of something like 10 studio records. I would easily call Red a proto-metal album, as with Lark Tongues. Three of a Perfect Pair might even be called alternative metal in some cases.
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Triceratopsoil
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 17 Dec 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 4197 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 10:43am |
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I really don't think they belong, as much as I love King Crimson. Having 4 or 5 songs that are sort of similar to metal doesn't make them at all related to metal. Even if they were included, all their albums would be "non-metal" but have maybe one "proto-metal" song on them
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Andyman1125
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 2068 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:41am |
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And Tool/A Perfect Circle/whatever other band Maynard James Keenan is in have also covered 21st Schizoid!
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J-Man
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7032 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:34am |
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I support their inclusion. They've had a more subtle influence on metal than, say, Led Zeppelin or Deep Purple, but I think if we want to accurately represent the formation of heavy metal, King Crimson played a key role.
Dream Theater has also covered LTIA by the way. 
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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Stooge
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator/Retired Admin Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Location: Whitby, ON, CAN Status: Offline Points: 5637 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:31am |
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I'll let the proto metal team know of your suggestion. I love KC, whether we decide to include them here or not.
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Andyman1125
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 2068 |
Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:19am |
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There's no doubt that these guys have had a huge influence on prog-metal bands today, and even some modern metal bands (Ozzy covered 21st Century Schizoid Man). They have a distinct proto-metal feel that made me want to suggest them.
A little treat  Edited by andyman1125 - 17 Jan 2011 at 9:25am |
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King Crimson for proto-metal?
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Triceratopsoil wrote: